From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 10:27:43 GMT-3
Frustration is certainly something that can build up while prepping for this
exam. Whether from some of the seemingly inane requirements that practice
labs contain, or certainly the same thing when finally getting to the real
lab exam and, as you said, thinking about why anyone in their right mind
would ever design a network that way.
The answer lies a little deeper than that. One of my consulting rules is
that if you ever run across a network designed in the same haphazard fashion
as a CCIE lab scenario, go find whoever was responsible for it and smack
them soundly about their head....
That being said, the test is not about designing insane networks. The test
is about figuring out whether your capabilities are "expert-level" or not.
If you have ever done a lot of consulting, you will find that clients don't
always ask things in a straight-forward, logical, or even sane manner at
times.
But in order to make something happen per the requirements given (no matter
how bizzare) you must have an in-depth understanding of the technologies in
question and what impact they may have on one another. Concepts are not
always easy to test. And multiple concepts trying to be tested on one exam
does not make for a good network design!
Think about real-world networks though. Let's take frame-relay for many
locations in a hub and spoke arrangement. Most of us, given the choice,
will opt for something nice and easy like a myriad of P2P links. Perhaps
not (but why not you ask? Maybe other "requirements" make that a bad
choice)... If the CCIE lab had you configure P2P links with different /30's
on each one, what would that test of you? That you understand Frame Relay?
That you understand some of the nuances of OSPF?
Nope. So how do you gauge "expert-level" knowledge.
Now, on the flip side of things, since you mention many others were in shock
as well. If you believe it was an unfair exam (beyond the testing your
expert-level knowledge of technologies), then let Cisco know about it!!!
E-mail to ccie@cisco.com and let them know your complaints. Certainly do
this in a professional method and analyze what and why things were not a
fair test. Don't rely on someone at Cisco saying "Oh, too many people
failed the CCIE lab this month, we should make it easier."
If you got a "bad" exam, I'm sorry to hear about that. The process in place
within the CCIE group should have actually prevented this from happening.
But if they merely are highlighting different areas that we (collectively)
haven't thought about before, then perhaps it is an interesting adjustment
to make in our approach to studying.
The items on the exam should be able to be located on the DocCD regardless.
So were they not there? Or were there simply too many to have time to find?
I don't mean to sound callous or offensive about this, but wherein lies the
problem? The exam? Or elsewhere? (And no, I'm not getting into a
discussion of one vendor's material versus anothers)
Certainly your experience with this exam can give you additional items to
study. At least the "focus" areas. Although you will likely find your next
lab different in terms of focus as well!
Recertifying CCIE's in the lab? Now that would be an interesting idea. :)
Most CCIE's that I have worked with though do very well at keeping up with
technologies, mostly because of the projects they become involved with.
Perhaps not to the level of the lab for every topic, but then again they
know much more about other topics than many do! :)
A level above CCIE? Another intersting idea, but if you are called an
'expert' for the CCIE, what do you call the next level? Cisco Certified
Internetwork Deity? :) And here I thought that is why you were going for
more than one CCIE!
Anyway, sorry to hear your disappointment with the lab this time around as
well as the outcome. But I would really suggest that you share your
constructive criticism (because you don't have to worry about the NDA thing
when talking to ccie@cisco.com) with the folks who can really take it to
heart. You may or may not get a reply, but you can always hope that it will
make someone look at the lab and/or the testing statistics and rethink some
things if it truly was an unfair exam.
Making tests at this level isn't easy! Taking them certainly isn't either!
:)
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, CISSP,
JNCIP, et al.
IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
http://www.ipexpert.net
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Joe
Deleonardo
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:06 AM
To: 'Fernando Rodriguez'; Joe_Deleonardo@hotmail.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
Oh I hope I didn't offend you when I said that. I understood what you meant.
I was just trying to say everyone's different and an individual - what I
require to do to pass may be twice what you require to pass.
I went through the Hello Computers lab book all of them. I went to the
HelloComputers bootcamp, then failed the lab last month.
I bought Internetwork Experts book, I went through all 20 labs, understood
everything. I do think it's a great book.
Today (er - yesterday - haven't gone to sleep yet) I took the lab and all I
can say was that this was most difficult test I've ever taken in my life.
The only word to describe it is, vicious. I've just never seen so many
obscure topics, with so many restrictions as to how you can and can't do
things, with very specific out come requirements. I got through the lab, but
didn't have enough time to go back over the whole thing to look for errors
or to go back to what I had skipped.
It's not like I didn't prepare. My notes only had one thing in them that I
had forgotten a detail about. One little detail out of the whole lab is not
bad. What was so different was the level of complexity and depth. This lab
made my last R&S lab look like an absolute piece of cake. I wasn't alone -
other candidates on the way out were all in shock. It was a brand new lab -
you could tell because all the plastic was shiny and the paper was printer
fresh. Maybe they'll make adjustments to it when they see just how hard
people see this lab to be. I know Cisco wants to make this difficult. Heck,
I want Cisco to make this difficult. But if they make it impossible then who
will want to even risk their money.
I really feel that if Cisco wanted to make another level up beyond the CCIE
this test today would have been a good candidate. You know what they could
do is have CCIE's that recertify on paper only and CCIE's that recertify in
the lab.... maybe at a reduced cost to the CCIE. We all know this technology
changes... what? Every 6-12 months there's a new major IOS revision. I doubt
all CCIEs really keep up with it.
All I wish is that the lab would be more real world. I think that would make
the CCIE much more valuable. Some of the requirements I read today made me
think right away, "why would you ever want to do that!" There's just so
many ways to do things and just because I know every trivial pursuit type
command/method doesn't necessarily make me a better engineer.
I feel at a loss at this point. My only idea at this point is to do what
some body else posted on this board - read through all of the Cisco
Documentation and try to learn the important details that I'm missing.
OK well, blah, blah, blah, just blowing off steam and frustration.
Good luck to you!
Joe
CCIE Security 12391
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Fernando Rodriguez
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:38 AM
To: Joe_Deleonardo@hotmail.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
Hi Joe and everyone,
I can tell you this is not a shortcut. I have been studying a lot during a
long while, attended bootcamp, reviewed everything and went for the
lab...and failed.
What I4m looking for is a book that provides me with similar challenges to
the lab and give me a clear explanation on why things are done in a certain
way and not other. I have some time to study at work and have also a
work-lab to "play" with...but no VoIP nor ATM but I can always mess around
with customers routers and, should something go wrong, blame on Cisco IOS
new features being developed hehehe
So no, I am not looking a shortcut...I am just trying to easy the pain of
this long path.
...and yes, you are right...I can not afford "a proctor" but if all of us
put a small amount of..."peanuts" we could get our "Groupstudy
proctor"...just a naughty thought hehehe
Regards,
Fernando
--- Joe Deleonardo <JoeDeleonardo@cox.net> escribis: > That really all
depends on you. Everyone learns at
> different speeds. You
> also have to take into account your real life experience, etc.
>
> Internetwork Experts book is great, but it's not a short cut. No book
> out there is a short cut. Don't kid yourself, there is absolutely no
> way to short cut the CCIE... well short of paying a proctor more money
> then any of us probably have to just pass you. But if you had that
> much money why bother with the CCIE? ;)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Fernando Rodriguez
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:30 AM
> To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
>
> Hi all again,
> I4m about to purchase the aforementioned book. I was thinking about
> how long I would need in normal circunstances to have a good look at
> it and practice enough in order to finish it and book my lab.
> Thanks as always,
>
> Fernando
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
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>
>
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