From: Howard C. Berkowitz (hcb@gettcomm.com)
Date: Tue Apr 20 2004 - 17:11:27 GMT-3
There's a story about a really great preacher who was asked by a new
minister, "How do you get your congregation to hear your sermons so
well?" He answered, "I tell them what I'm going to tell them, then I
tell them, then I tell them what I told them." It's that last part
that we are talking about here -- how to make the connection between
your lab experience and your knowledge of protocols.
As far as "telling what you're going to tell them", Bruce Caslow's
writing on "syndrome recognition" is essential reading. As far as
the actual performance -- the sermon -- it's not just being able to
go through 8 hours of lab, but, as any good sports coach will tell
you, you have to master the fundamentals so well that they are
automatic.
I have to agree with what Bill and Brian has said. Without getting
into anything commercial, I'm working on a study method that will be
yet a different approach to give this feedback. However you do it,
whether bootcamp or study group or other training approach, you need
that feedback.
Personally, I like to take the feedback one or two steps further,
into what I think of as real theory but others call academic. Take
redistribution as an example. The principle that underlies all mutual
redistribution, first and foremost, is loop avoidance. Split
horizon, or the logical equivalent of it between protocols, is one
way to do that. Path vector is another.
But from a software engineering standpoint, which many people here
don't study, one of the most important and most counterintuitive
things to master is that programs, as well as routing systems, you
want to hide as much information as possible. This is the rationale
for IGP hierarchical summarization, BGP blackhole routes and
aggregates, CGMP, VTP pruning, etc. Think about all of these methods
and try to grasp that their purpose is hiding, not distributing
information. The best network is the one that has connectivity but
has the fewest routes in the routing table -- it's certainly the
easiest to troubleshoot.
At 12:47 PM -0700 4/20/04, Bill Lijewski wrote:
>I would agree with Brian. Most of the people that I talk to are
>frustrated with the grading on the exam. They don't know why they
>didn't receive full credit for a section and they get no feedback from
>Cisco. If you don't know what you did wrong it is very easy to repeat
>the same mistakes the next time. We have been running a Mock Lab, that
>people are allowed to take remotely, which simulates the real lab. When
>they are completed with the lab it is graded by hand and a detailed
>report is written for each person explaining why they lost points or
>what they could have done differently. They receive a step-by-step
>walkthrough of the lab and they also have the opportunity to talk to the
>person that graded the exam, to clarify any questions that may remain in
>their minds. We have been doing this since August of last year and the
>feedback from the students has been great. They will find something
>that they didn't know or have been consistently doing wrong and the best
>part, according to them, is that they get feedback. No matter who,
>what, or how, I think that the feedback you can receive from a Bootcamp
>/ Mock Lab is invaluable.
>
>- Bill Lijewski
>CCIE#8642
>Network Learning Inc
>5 Day R&S CCIE Bootcamp Instructor
>bill@eccie.com
>www.ccbootcamp.com (Cisco Training)
>1-702-968-5100
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>Brian McGahan
>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:30 AM
>To: Edward Kelly; Volodymyr Levytskyy; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: RE: boot camp again :) [bcc][faked-from]
>Importance: Low
>
>Ed,
>
>> ...Then again, you can always ante up the $1250 to Cisco and take the
>> exam,
>> you'll find out in no uncertain terms *exactly* what you need to
>> concentrate
>> on...
>
> This is not necessarily true. It is more common that I see
>students who don't understand why they failed as opposed to students
>that do understand why they failed. As I'm sure many of you can attest
>to, the score report that Cisco provides after an unsuccessful attempt
>is rarely indicative of how you thought you performed. This was the main
>motivation for the new mock lab class format that Brian Dennis and I
>developed.
>
> By subjecting students to the conditions of the lab (8 hours for
>lab plus 30 minutes for lunch), grading the lab on a point scale of 100,
>and discussing the lab, you can get an independent outside opinion of
>what you're doing correct/incorrect.
>
>> You have to put in some serious (like, SERIOUS) hands-on study time to
>> pass
>
> Undoubtedly. The key to passing this certification is to
>understand the fundamental principles of how the protocols operate and
>interoperate with each other. There are no shortcuts in this process.
>Learning tools such as classes and workbooks can assist you in this
>process, but you will still only get out of them what you put into them.
>
> Good luck on your next attempt.
>
>
>HTH,
>
>Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593
>bmcgahan@internetworkexpert.com
>
>Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
>Toll Free: 877-224-8987 x 705
>Outside US: 775-826-4344 x 705
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>Of
>> Edward Kelly
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:48 AM
>> To: 'Volodymyr Levytskyy'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: boot camp again :)
>>
>> Hello...
>> ...That's called class auditing and it's pretty common with most
>> technology
>> related classes, doesn't matter if it's Cisco, Microsoft, Joe Router,
>> whichever...They know you really don't want to have to sit through a
>class
>> again...Take the class for what it's worth, whoever you go with, and
>focus
>> on the weaknesses that it exposes...
>>
>> ...Then again, you can always ante up the $1250 to Cisco and take the
>> exam,
>> you'll find out in no uncertain terms *exactly* what you need to
>> concentrate
>> on...You have to put in some serious (like, SERIOUS) hands-on study
>time
>> to
>> pass, boot camp or no...My 2nd attempt is next month and I am looking
>> forward to it...
>>
>> ...I see allot of posts from allot of really sharp people on this
>mailing
>> list, and many of them have helped me understand things, or *notice*
>> things
>> that I hadn't caught before...I suggest you use every resource
>available
>> to
>> you as much and as often as you can...
>>
>> That's my .02...
>> Ed
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>Of
>> Volodymyr Levytskyy
>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 12:30 PM
>> To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: boot camp again :)
>>
>> What do you guys think about:
>>
>> "If you do not pass the CCIE Lab after completing this course you will
>> be able to attend the same course again absolutely FREE!"
>>
>> I don't think I will need to take another boot camp. I mean after I
>> fail. I will need just more time to figure out where I make mistake.
>>
>> Any opinion about that :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks...
>>
>> Vlad
>>
>>
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