From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Wed Mar 03 2004 - 11:08:23 GMT-3
While I agree with you that testing on new topics may be a much better
method of doing things... There's a couple of flaws with that comparison in
all.
First, you can take any CCIE written qualifier to recert. So if you're
looking for newer things, take a different track!
Second, as you point out below, for CEU credit, all you have to have is your
name on the attendance list. Or in some web-based or book-based things, you
may have to turn in a short quiz that's done open book. I know a LOT of
people in the medical profession that get together as a group and fill these
things out "because they have to". There is no retention at that point.
By taking a test like the CCIE one, even though it may be over similar
material (although the exam does change a bit on a yearly basis), that at
least looks at the retention of information. Or absolute lucky guessing.
:)
There's all sorts of differences to be pointed out, but getting back to it,
I do agree that there should be exams on newer topics. But...
My only gripe on the recert is that it's easier now than it was. It used to
be you had to take a recert exam (the IP one anyway was definitely an
interesting exam over things not really tested on before) or you had to pass
another CCIE track written AND lab exam. Now it's just the written exam for
anything.
The idea of passing a test with potentially different information on it is
still there, and from that viewpoint, I think the recert is perfectly fine.
It seems (IMHO) to be more of a retention process than some of the CEU stuff
I've seen in other professions.
I think the process of getting your medical license reinstated if you don't
get your CEU credits is a bit simpler than the CCIE requirements....
Although this varies by state, just paying a chunk of money and having your
name publically listed (in local professional trade rag) that you have been
bad seems easier. (Although I like the concept of public humiliation to
keep people motivated!)
:)
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Howard C. Berkowitz
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 8:41 AM
To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Your Next Step is CCIE [Cisco feeling the burn]
At 8:15 AM -0500 3/3/04, Peter van Oene wrote:
>>In the grand scheme of things no matter what you look at, you have
>>some good and some bad. There are bad doctors out there, although I
>>don't see any decrease in the need for their services all in all.
>>Economics will make the bad ones go away (or move into management? :)
>>) I can't say that I haven't run into CCIEs that are less than bright
>>out in the field. But this is not a new problem. You'll also notice
>>that about 10% of R&S CCIE's are no longer certified. Perhaps these
>>are the culling of those who can't figure out how to recertify.
>
>Some of us who have aged out our certs are sick of Cisco extorting
>money from us with 300 buck sylvan exams. Maybe we're culled, or maybe
>we just don't care.
>
Knowing you, Peter, it's not a matter of your not caring about your
profession. In what you do, having achieved a certification is a point of
reference in your career. More significant is what you've accomplished,
often well beyond the level of the CCIE lab, after receiving that
certification.
Keeping a Cisco certification renewed is obviously of importance to
resellers, trainers, etc., that need an endorsment by Cisco, or where having
a current certification brings value to one's employer or market value to
firms that need people with current certifications.
Since good and bad doctors have been mentioned, let me comment on how
continuing education and certification are handled in that profession. In
the first year of medical school, a student will take core courses such as
gross anatomy, biochemistry and physiology. In the second year, they will
take more clinically oriented science courses such as pharmacology and
pathologic diagnosis. In the third and fourth years, they rotate through
lectures and clinical observations in different specialties, and then, in
internship, residency and fellowship, get increasingly advanced supervised
practice.
At the end of medical school in the US, one takes the standardized tests of
the American Board of Medical Examiners, checking on basic knowledge. In
subsequent graduate medical education, the resident is constantly evaluated
by faculty.
Eventually (the details depend on the rules of the specialty), the candidate
demonstrates they have completed a specialty-board-approved training
program, may take additional exams both oral and written, and possibly have
to do "essay" type case presentations. Again depending on the specific
specialty, they will then be Board-Eligible or Board-Certified. Full
certification may require a certain number of years of practice after
eligibility, and perhaps additional presentations or examinations. Of
course, in parallel to their specialty review, they also will be monitored
constantly by hospitals, insurance companies, etc.
But there is a concept of continuing medical education. I'm quite familiar
with this, as I find it useful to take CME as a part of staying abreast of
the requirements for medical networks and computing. CME is not always
scored; it may be attendance only, and jurisdictions and specialties vary as
to whether, and how much, CME they require.
What I find to be a really significant difference between CME and Cisco
recertification, however, is CME assumes the basics. It's not just taking
the latest CCIE written, which may contain basic skills for a CCIE. It
concentrates on new information. Here's a list of recent CME topics from one
site I visit regularly; note none of them are about basic anatomy, IP
addressing, basic physiology, or show ip
interface:
CME Antiretroviral Drug Sequencing
Learn about sequencing of NRTI/NtRTIs for the treatment of patients with
HIV.
CME Management of Alzheimer's Disease and Related Dementias Examine the
effects of cholinesterase inhibitors on the symptom domains of AD and
related dementias.
CME Opioid Analgesia: Practical Treatment of the Patient With Chronic Pain
Review theories of chronic pain management, with particular emphasis on
practical management of medication in typical patients, using the case-study
approach.
CME Stabilizing Depression in Bipolar Disorder Understand the challenges of
diagnosing and treating bipolar depression, and review the data on mood
stabilizers, including lamotrigine, in its management.
CME Infectious Complications in Neutropenic Cancer Patients Discuss
improvements in the mortality rate of immunocompromised patients, the
changing profiles of pathogens, and fungal infections in cancer patients.
CME Therapeutic Challenges in the Treatment of Cardiovascular
Diseases: Issues and Answers
Review results from ongoing and recently completed trials using dual
antiplatelet therapy in patients with atherothrombotic disease and discuss
their potential implications for clinical practice.
CME Diabetes and Macrovascular Disease: Risk Factor Management Recognize the
risk factors in patients with diabetes that are linked to vascular
dysfunction and how they can be successfully managed.
CME A New Dawn in the Treatment of Dyslipidemia: Cardiovascular Risk
Reduction Through Emerging Science and Proven Clinical Results Review the
clinical trials on current and novel therapies that emphasize the importance
of intensifying lipid-lowering treatment to improve outcomes.
Does everyone see the difference between retaking a CCIE Written as opposed,
say, to taking brief (most of these take a few hours), highly focused
education on new networking topics, or the latest thinking on old ones?
Does everyone see how the primary focus of these CME examples is teaching,
although they contain exams, while recertification is more focused on the
process of exam-taking?
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