From: Tom Larus (tlarus@cox.net)
Date: Fri Sep 20 2002 - 08:26:53 GMT-3
He answered that question when he mentioned, "countless hours of lab
practice on the rack."
----- Original Message -----
From: "elping" <elpingu@acedsl.com>
To: "IPSec" <ipsec@myrealbox.com>
Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <"Joseph, Rinehart"@groupstudy.com>;
<jjrinehart@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Networking professionals are welcome too!
> just curious:
> have you ever touched a router not counting the routers you touched at the
lab ????
>
> this question I am asking is due the stament you said:
>
> "You guessed it, I'm CCIE now! (although, up till today, I still have not
ever worked on any
> cisco-related jobs, or any networking jobs.)"
>
> I wont even coment on then other one you said:
>
> "I am not considering myself a paper CCIE at all, as I did think I was a
paper CNE, MSCE, CCNA and CCNP."
>
>
> El ping
>
> IPSec wrote:
>
> > I am not sure if myself came from another career background to pursue
this CCIE, I simply didn't have one....I came to this country 7 years ago
trying to make a living without knowing anyone here. That was 1995, and I
didn't know anything about computer, and as you can imagine, I didn't have
one either. At that time, I didn't have any marketable skills, which had
kept me out of job for over 2 years. In 1997, I started teaching myself the
Novell networking technologies and took me another 2 years to finish up all
the Novell CNE courses, and for the very first time in my life I had an IT
certification and became a real paper CNE ;-). With the help of that CNE
certificate, I managed to get in a small company working at the help desk
doing end user PC support, which I still didn't know too much about. (it
didn't talk too much about PC in the Novell CNE books.)
> > Things started to take off from that point on, where I constantly have
access to and work on PC's. First, I taught myself and passsed a bunch of
Microsoft exams to become an MSCE, then moved on to Cisco certification.
After spending one weekend in a local Barnes and Noble store reading up a
CCNA book, I passed the CCNA test and got my first Cisco cert.
> > In the following a couple of months, I self studied all 4 CCNP courses
and successfully passed all 4 exams one after another to become a real paper
CCNP.
> > It didn't just stop at that point, with all the hype and respect of the
most prestigous certification, CCIE I heard about, I embarked on the very
long and very very tough journey toward this end goal, that was a big
decission, but again, I am on my own. I could never afford time or money
going to any Cisco training classes or those expensive commercial bootcamps.
Being on my own pursuing the CCIE is a really tough thing to do, believe me
on that, coz I know and I did it. What makes things worse are, I got long
hours to work during the day, and it's non-cisco related, not even
networking related. In the evening, I forced myself to pull together again
and fired up all the energy left over from the hard working day, reading up
thousands of pages of CCO documentations, stack after stack of Cisco Press
books, going through thousands of emails in this list (over 100,000 emails
since I joined), countless hours of lab practice on the rack, numerous long
days and late nights, regardl!
> es!
> > s weekdays, weekends or holidays.
> > What has all this hard working treated me with?
> > You guessed it, I'm CCIE now! (although, up till today, I still have not
ever worked on any cisco-related jobs, or any networking jobs.)
> > I am not considering myself a paper CCIE at all, as I did think I was a
paper CNE, MSCE, CCNA and CCNP.
> > To become a CCIE is a big deal, do think again if you just decided to,
but you can do it just like I did it!
> >
> > My highest respect to my fellow CCIE's!
> >
> > "Joseph Rinehart" <jjrinehart@hotmail.com>
> > Sent by: nobody@groupstudy.com
> > 09/18/2002 12:01 PM
> > Please respond to "Joseph Rinehart"
> >
> > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > cc:
> > Subject: Re: Networking professionals are welcome too!
> >
> > I am curious as to what other professions and background we have among
the
> > members of this list. If this list mirros reality I would suspect there
are
> > folks working in this industry and the CCIE that didn't start out in
> > networking at all. That's why the lawyers among us are encouraging to
me.
> >
> > I started out in the industry at a small ISP as a sales rep knowing
nothing
> > about the technology (more on that in a minute), but I decided I didn't
want
> > to be one of those sales reps that looked like a deer caught in the
> > headlights when asked a question. So I studied, funny because it
started
> > out with the "Internet Plumbing Handbook" by Novell press---man that
nearly
> > overloaded my brain, it assumed a lot of knowledge. I must have read it
> > four times when it started making sense. After that it was pretty much
just
> > drilling deeper on the technologies my company was offering. When I
started
> > my CCNA it started to come together a lot more, and of course that is
now
> > history. I moved from that ISP to AT&T as a sales rep about that time
and
> > then moved into a sales engineer position. You would be surprised how
much
> > hands on with routers you can get even in presales positions like that.,
> > even to this day. I am lucky that my old company let me set up a lab
with
> > their old equipment and calls on me from time to time to troubleshoot
their
> > stuff. There's nothing like a live production environment to really
test
> > what you know or don't know. And Dedcember will mark my fourth year in
the
> > industry.
> >
> > Oh yeah, about my former career, I was a full time minister and church
> > planter, with a master's degree. maybe all that Hebrew and Greek
studying
> > prepared me for language syntax and stuff.
> >
> > And you thought it was weird for lawyers to be doing this, hmmmm?
> >
> > What other backgrounds do we have here?
> >
> > :)
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Abraham, Ajith" <Ajith.Abraham@FLHOSP.ORG>
> > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:27 AM
> > Subject: Networking professionals are welcome too!
> >
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > Lawyers have not stopped becoming lawyers, Engineering schools have
not
> > > closed their doors forever, nor have McDonald stopped their
franchising
> > > program because there are so many of all of them. It is all about
being
> > the
> > > best at what you do. CCIE, or SkyCap, be the best.
> > >
> > > "We all , in one way or the other, belong to the grand old Idiot's
club.
> > > Some have guest passes, some have annual membership, some are life
time
> > > members and yet others who are lobbying for unlimited terms in the
office.
> > > What are you up to today?" Ajith Abraham ,El Presidente, Idiot's Club
> > >
> > > AVRAN
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Gibbs, John [mailto:John.Gibbs@cwcom.cwplc.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 3:47 AM
> > > To: 'Paglia, John (USPC.PCT.Hopewell)'; 'certstudy'; rich;
> > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: RE: Re: MS-CCIE
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi guys
> > >
> > > I have to agree with John and Chuck, etc here - Rich is attacking the
very
> > > certification he hopes to achieve, but I also understand what Rich is
> > trying
> > > to say in that he feels that the CCIE may become devalued with the
influx
> > of
> > > so many new CCIEs. What I say to you all is that we all have our own
> > > reasons for going for the ultimate certification, and who are we to
> > question
> > > the motives of other people? This is a very emotive subject, but there
are
> > a
> > > few obvious reasons for the drop in CCIE salary rates;
> > >
> > > 1) As was mentioned in a previous reply, the current market climate
> > > dictates that as the marketplace has more CCIEs than ever before,
salaries
> > > will drop, perhaps temporarily, to compensate for that.
> > > 2) More and more people are now trying to achieve CCIE certification,
and
> > > it appears that more are succeeding.
> > >
> > > I have my lab booked for early next year, and I can honestly say that
I am
> > > not bothered about how many CCIEs there are in the world, 8,000 or so
> > fully
> > > qualified CCIEs is not a huge number considering the worlds
population.
> > It
> > > used to be said that people went for the CCIE certification to command
a
> > > better salary, in this current market, this is obviously not the case,
as
> > we
> > > have seen CCIE salaries drop dramatically. I would say that this
shows
> > that
> > > the people who are now going through the CCIE are the ones who are
doing
> > it
> > > for the right reasons - they love what they do, are willing to make
> > > sacrifices, and will be proud to have that number by their name.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > John Gibbs CCNP CNE ACA
> > > Senior Network Consultant
> > > Engineering Services
> > > Service Delivery
> > > Internet Services
> > >
> > > Cable & Wireless
> > > Delivering the Internet promise
> > > www.cw.com <http://www.cw.com>
> > >
> > > email: john.gibbs@cw.com
> > > Tel: 44 (0)1793 362334
> > > Fax: 44 (0)1793 362062
> > > Mob: 44 (0)7786 854837
> > > Post ISC Windmill Hill Business Park, Whitehill Way, Swindon,
Wiltshire,
> > SN5
> > > 6LA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Paglia, John (USPC.PCT.Hopewell) [mailto:JPaglia@NA2.US.ML.com]
> > > Sent: 18 September 2002 03:37
> > > To: 'certstudy'; rich; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: RE: Re: MS-CCIE
> > >
> > >
> > > Ya gotta wonder about the thought processes of someone who joins onto
a
> > CCIE
> > > Study list, then trivializes the very thing the list was created for
to
> > it's
> > > hardworking and insightful members. And to top it all, this same
person
> > > admits that HE HIMSELF desires the attainment of this cert.
> > >
> > > Hey, if it's as overpopulated, trivialized and non-lucrative as you
think,
> > > why not direct your typing energy elsewhere??? Don't hang around for
our
> > > benefit!!!
> > >
> > > Pags
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: certstudy [SMTP:certstudy@snet.net]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:01 PM
> > > > To: rich; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > Subject: OT: Re: MS-CCIE
> > > >
> > > > As you did Rich, I am sharing my thoughts here. The comments are
not
> > > > meant
> > > > towards you personally but they are meant to
> > > > try and shine a light on the fact that way too many people are after
> > this
> > > > gig for the $$ and not for the Joy of Internetworking.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A couple of years ago, at the height of the dot com era, a CCIE in
my
> > > > area
> > > > > could easily pull in 150k. Did I start down this road for the
money?
> > > > Hell
> > > > > yes. I already had field experience, a good job, seniority,
respect,
> > > > and
> > > > all
> > > > > that stuff that makes work fun. Besides, CCIE would be a
challenge.
> > > > But
> > > > a
> > > > > LOT has changed in the past couple of years. Bad economy. Fewer
> > jobs.
> > > > > Lowered salaries. And apparently a butt load of CCIE's! I mean
wow!
> > > > And
> > > > to
> > > > > hear that many of them are just lab ccie's really brings the 8000+
> > > > CCIE's
> > > > into
> > > > > a different light. It brings my own efforts into the same light.
It
> > > > reminds
> > > > > me of what happened to Novell certifications... I had just gotten
my
> > CNE
> > > > when
> > > > > I heard the term 'paper CNE' about a guy at the same company who
> > carried
> > > > cue
> > > > > cards around to customers with commands written on them.
> > > >
> > > > Interesting--so you dont think that the growth in the Internet and
the
> > > > fact
> > > > that companies' reliance on
> > > > their own networks and the growth of networking in general has had
> > > > anything
> > > > to do with the increase
> > > > in the number of CCIE's. There are currently over 150000 networks
in a
> > > > full
> > > > Internet routing table. can you imagine
> > > > how many devices and networks are behind these?
> > > >
> > > > I will acknowledge the fact that pay rates have come down to
realistic
> > > > ranges again. this is due more to the economy than to the number of
> > > > CCIE's
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I haven't gotten my ccie yet but I'm hoping to. My chances would
> > > > probably
> > > > be
> > > > > greatly enhanced by going to a boot-camp, but I feel that would
just
> > add
> > > > to
> > > > > the problem.
> > > >
> > > > How is going to a boot camp adding to the problem? The boot camps
that
> > > > are
> > > > at the top of the list include
> > > > instructors which Cisco itself calls on to 'Alpha" test new versions
of
> > > > the
> > > > tests. There is probably not one of us here who can say
> > > > that he or she uses ALL of the tested technologies daily. what is
the
> > > > difference between locking yourself in a room for months or going to
a
> > > > week
> > > > long
> > > > intensive session where you can practice in a structured
environment.
> > For
> > > > me a good bootcamp means maximizing my study time and working on
speed
> > and
> > > > time management which i personally have trouble doing alone in my
home
> > > > lab.
> > > >
> > > > >Maybe limiting the number of active CCIE's in a country would
> > > > > keep the certification from getting too bloated. Or maybe just
stop
> > the
> > > > > certification process now or at a fixed number. Or better yet,
allow
> > no
> > > > more
> > > > > than 1000 a year (total) to be certified. Candidate selection
process
> > > > could
> > > > > be a weighted drawing (increased chances every year).
> > > >
> > > > This makes huge sense. I can hear it now from the Cisco reps...."I
am
> > > > sorry
> > > > mr customer, we just cant sell any more routers this year.
> > > > All of the qualified individuals that we have for support are too
busy
> > and
> > > > we cant certify any more this year. We wouldnt want to water
> > > > down the value of the certification.....Hello....Hello....hmmm mr
> > customer
> > > > must have hung up. I wonder why??"
> > > >
> > > > CCIE and all of the certifications are Cisco certs and it is in
Cisco's
> > > > best
> > > > interest to have a well trained and certified support
> > > > infrastructure so they can sell more product.
> > > >
> > > > I think if we move to Guadalupe, Puerto Rico, Belarus, Lithuania,
> > Latvia,
> > > > Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, Morocco, Bahrain, Jordan, Quatar, Kazakhstan,
Sri
> > > > Lanka or Vietnam you can be the second CCIE in any of those areas
and
> > > > probably demand a very, very high salary.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not trying to criticize anyone's efforts, but rather express
the
> > > > results
> > > > > of those efforts. It's kind of liking moving into a new, quiet,
> > > > expensive
> > > > > neighborhood. It's great until everyone else moves in, and
suddenly
> > > > that
> > > > > expensive house isn't worth what you paid for it.
> > > >
> > > > If all we are doing this for is to get into the fancy neighborhood,
we
> > are
> > > > doing it for the wrong reasons.
> > >
> > >
> > > **********************************************************************
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