From: steven.j.nelson@xxxxxx
Date: Fri Aug 09 2002 - 14:21:48 GMT-3
Hal,
Well put and I agree for the most part, I think the comments regarding how
do I enable RIP is a little far and away different from some of the
questions posted to the group that I have seen lately. Some of these
questions are so blatant that they even have the same addressing scheme and
router names / numbers as the diagrams in the lab itself.
Now this clearly does violate NDA because if you stood the question posted
here side by side with the lab paper, you would be hard pushed to tell the
difference, howwever it's not the discussions that boil my piss it's the
fact that some people quite frankly are not interested in looking into the
technology and learning why, the simply want the answer and this in my book
is not what the certification is all about, in my eyes understanding is the
name of the game not memorisation.
Just as an aside, I have sat the lab twice and in the last week I have seen
some 7 or 8 posts that directky relate to questions I was posed on my test,
no doubt, categoric and blatant. I also know that a large number of members
have seen the same thing.
So I guess the message is if you do not understand something, look it up,
read it, understand it, read some more, study again and again and if you
still do not understand then post with some integrity and show that you know
the subject but maybe not all the small details.
Just my thoughts.
Take care
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Logan, Harold [mailto:loganh@mccfl.edu]
Sent: 09 August 2002 17:54
To: Troy Rader; Jake; Brian Dennis; ccielab
Subject: RE: OT: NDA - My response to the problem
I feel there's a fine line to be walked here. Myself, there's a nerd-knob
that I couldn't figure out on my lab that I haven't been able to find since
I took it. I would like to pose the question to the list for discussion, but
have specifically refrained from doing so for fear of the NDA witch hunt. In
fact, I think it would be an interesting discussion. Now it's been over a
month since I failed the lab, so anyone taking the lab right now is
guaranteed to have a different lab than I did. Can I discuss that problem
now? Clearly there'd be no harm in doing so. If I don't preface my question
with "THIS IS A QUESTION I HAD ON THE LAB" then I don't feel that's an NDA
violation.
Taking the NDA ad nauseum, is it an NDA violation to ask the list what
command enables the RIP protocol? I may (or may not) have had to do that on
my lab, so isn't asking the list members how to do so? I'm no lawyer, but
that's clearly not the spirit of the NDA. While I'm at it, should I violate
the NDA further by asking how to activate an interface or give it an IP
address?
Case in point, a month or 3 ago I answered a question someone asked
regarding OSPF hello and dead timers, and in my answer I mentioned practice
labs requiring a candidate to change certain timers without using the usual
commands. Another list member admonished me off-line, telling me that I knew
full well that I wasn't talking about practice labs, implying that I was
participating in an NDA-violating discussion. The humor there is that I
hadn't taken my lab yet, I really was talking about practice labs.
I think the best thing for us to do is encourage some integrity in posting
questions, and let Cisco worry about enforcing the NDA.
Hal
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Troy Rader [mailto:troy@onenet.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:14 PM
> To: Jake; Brian Dennis; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: OT: NDA - My response to the problem
>
>
> People at RTP have told me that they monitor this list (see a previous
> thread for the definition of RTP). Melody Green told me on
> the phone once
> that a guy posted ccie written questions here, and they
> flagged him in the
> system. He lived about 20 minutes from Cisco in rtp, so they
> knew he would
> go there for the exam. They were going to confront him when
> he showed up.
> I would have loved to have seen that. They also prosecute people for
> violations, and when I last tested, the proctor stated that
> they had engaged
> the FBI in pursuit of some individuals in regard to the CCIE
> tests. I am
> personally happy that they take this so seriously. Perhaps I
> am a fool for
> believing foolish stories, but I do believe these accounts are true.
>
> Troy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jake" <jakeczyz@yahoo.com>
> To: "Brian Dennis" <brian@5g.net>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:28 PM
> Subject: RE: OT: NDA - My response to the problem
>
>
> > Folks with numbers,
> > Enough has probably been said about the NDA, but I wanted to
> matter-of-factly state
> > what I personally am doing when I see a post which is identical to a
> question I had on my
> > exam (as may or may not have happened very recently ;). I'm simply
> forwarding that
> > message to "ccie@cisco.com" with the following note:
> > -----------------
> > CCIE Program Administrators,
> > Sorry to bother, but I am forwarding an email which
> looks like an
> NDA violation.
> > Please handle as you see fit or disregard. I'm just
> concerned about the
> program's
> > integrity.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > ----------------
> >
> > If you like, you can do the same. Since I only took it
> once, I haven't
> seen many
> > questions. Maybe they'll find repeat offenders and track
> these dishonest
> people down; I
> > certainly hope they would for what is riding on this cert
> for everyone. I
> hope none of us
> > would answer one of these questions, especially ones that
> can be looked up
> at the brain
> > dump of all brain dumps - CCO (if you ask me what that is,
> I will shoot
> you). ;)
> >
> > [Please (please!) respond off-line if you have a personal
> issue with my
> (or any) post.
> > We've filled the list up with enough junk these last few
> days to last a
> lifetime.] Excuse
> > me for my contribution to the heap.
> >
> > IMHO,
> > Jake
> > 9102
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Brian Dennis <brian@5g.net> wrote:
> > > It's sad but true about the NDA violations on this list.
> The number of
> > > NDA violations is definitely growing. In a way this list
> is actually
> > > hurting the CCIE program because of the small number of
> people that post
> > > questions that are clear violations of the NDA.
> > >
> > > Brian Dennis, CCIE #2210 (R&S/ISP Dial)
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > > steven.j.nelson@bt.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:52 AM
> > > To: Mark.Snow@newcome.com; Jeffbk@austin.rr.com;
> > > omarmasood360@hotmail.com; ccieexam2002@yahoo.com;
> PImmo@CTITELE.COM;
> > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: RE: OT: RE: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > Agreed, but I see more NDA's on this list daily than from
> any other
> > > sources
> > > online. I have taken the a couple of times and it seems
> almost every day
> > > there is a question posted with the exact same wording
> that was on one
> > > my
> > > labs...
> > >
> > > There seems to be more cheaters lurking and posting to
> this list than
> > > just
> > > this guy.
> > >
> > > Just an observation.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Snow, Mark [mailto:Mark.Snow@newcome.com]
> > > Sent: 07 August 2002 17:59
> > > To: 'Jeff K'; Omar Masood; CCIE FUN; Immo, Paul;
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: RE: OT: RE: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think this guy should ever get the cert if this
> is his attitude
> > > towards cheaters.
> > > This cert is one of the highest in regards partially
> because of the
> > > small
> > > elite community that makes it up, and their willingness
> to work together
> > > as
> > > a team and help each other. We (not I yet) want to keep
> it small, so
> > > that
> > > junk like this is always excluded from such community.
> > >
> > > my 2 cents
> > >
> > > Snow
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jeff K [mailto:Jeffbk@austin.rr.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:38 PM
> > > To: Omar Masood; CCIE FUN; Immo, Paul; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: Re: OT: RE: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > >
> > >
> > > That is an interesting answer. So, you will question the
> value of the
> > > CCIE
> > > because of stuff like that, but will say you don't have
> the obligation
> > > to
> > > notify Cisco of something as major as someone having 4
> copies of the lab
> > > manual because you technically aren't certified yet? No
> offense, but I
> > > don't think you have much room to talk about the value of
> the program...
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Omar Masood" <omarmasood360@hotmail.com>
> > > To: "Jeff K" <Jeffbk@austin.rr.com>; "CCIE FUN"
> > > <ccieexam2002@yahoo.com>;
> > > "Immo, Paul" <PImmo@CTITELE.COM>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 12:31 PM
> > > Subject: Re: OT: RE: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > >
> > >
> > > > thank you for defining the truth, I not certified yet,
> so I don't
> > > think
> > > the
> > > > non-disclosures concerns me yet.
> > > > **Omar Masood 360**
> > > >
> > > > e/m: omarmasood360@hotmail.com
> > > > or: omarmasood@aol.com
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jeff K" <Jeffbk@austin.rr.com>
> > > > To: <omarmasood360@hotmail.com>; "CCIE FUN"
> <ccieexam2002@yahoo.com>;
> > > "Immo,
> > > > Paul" <PImmo@CTITELE.COM>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 4:24 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: OT: RE: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > As this is somewhat of a religious arguement, I try
> to avoid even
> > > getting
> > > > > involved... But, come on, do you expect everyone to
> stop pursuing
> > > their
> > > > > CCIE because you got your number? As far as number of
> > > certifications
> > > go,
> > > > I
> > > > > got my number (8007) August 14, 2001. Rick got his
> number (9482) on
> > > June
> > > > > 11, 2002. So, over an approximate 10 month period,
> that is about
> > > 150
> > > > > certifications / month. I'm not saying that is a
> linear trend (I
> > > know
> > > > there
> > > > > are variables here like 9/11 and the two-day to
> one-day change) -- I
> > > have
> > > > no
> > > > > desire to look at the data that much. Anyway, Cisco
> contends that
> > > the
> > > > CCIE
> > > > > is a way to identify people with a certain level of
> expertise with
> > > their
> > > > > hardware / software and various networking concepts.
> They don't
> > > promise
> > > > it
> > > > > to be the solution to all your problems, nor do they
> promise you the
> > > > > greatest jobs making the most money. True, some
> people get the CCIE
> > > who
> > > > > really shouldn't. This happens in every area. Don't
> try to say
> > > that
> > > > > everyone with a college degree is an expert in their
> field. And,
> > > there
> > > > are
> > > > > people out there willing to cheat to ge the cert.
> Once again, this
> > > is
> > > not
> > > > a
> > > > > problem unique to the CCIE. It is up to us to make
> the decision to
> > > do
> > > it
> > > > > the right way and to notify the program when we find
> out about this
> > > stuff.
> > > > > It is really in our hands to keep the value of the
> CCIE high. BTW,
> > > did
> > > > you
> > > > > report the guy who had 4 versions of the RS lab
> booklet? You are
> > > pretty
> > > > > much obligated to do so...
> > > > >
> > > > > One last thing, once we hit 5-digits, that still
> means there are
> > > about
> > > > 9000
> > > > > CCIE numbers that have been issued worldwide.
> Subtract those who
> > > aren't
> > > > > current, not working in the field, etc. and it's a
> much smaller
> > > number --
> > > > > still a pretty elite group, I'd say.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck to all those still pursuing their CCIE,
> > > > >
> > > > > -Jeff., CCIE 8007
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <omarmasood360@hotmail.com>
> > > > > To: "CCIE FUN" <ccieexam2002@yahoo.com>; "Immo, Paul"
> > > <PImmo@CTITELE.COM>;
> > > > > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:33 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: OT: RE: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I don't make the figures, Cisco do, do you really
> think they tell
> > > the
> > > > > public
> > > > > > everything? All comes out int the annual reports
> only. See for ur
> > > self.
> > > > > > Cisco along with Microsoft,Oracle and Juniper are
> companies that
> > > > > specialise
> > > > > > in 'generalisation personalisation'. Look around, I
> have heard
> > > from a
> > > > very
> > > > > > reliable source that he had 4 different variations of RS lab
> > > booklet
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > lab - before he sat the exam - he passed with a
> very high score.
> > > Look
> > > up
> > > > > > what a public must do to stay public. business is
> business, right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Omar Masood 360**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > e/m: omarmasood360@hotmail.com
> > > > > > or: omarmasood@aol.com
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > Wrom: OKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAI
> > > > > > To: "Immo, Paul" <PImmo@CTITELE.COM>; "'Omar Masood'"
> > > > > > <omarmasood360@hotmail.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:22 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: OT: RE: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Interesting ......
> > > > > > > but i don't think that is a valid figure
> > > > > > > --- "Immo, Paul" <PImmo@CTITELE.COM> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Where are you getting your figures?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Paul M. Immo CCDP, CCNP, MCSE
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > CTI Telecom
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sr. Solution Engineer
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tel: 703-834-1538
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cell: 703-930-5724
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > Wrom: JJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:29 AM
> > > > > > > > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > > > Subject: Dark rivers of the heart?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With now a reported 100 CCIEs being certified every
> > > > > > > > 10 days...is it still
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > same certification Cisco have us believe? Think
> > > > > > > > about it, 100 IEs in such a
> > > > > > > > short period of time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Sep 07 2002 - 19:48:22 GMT-3