From: Peter van Oene (pvo@xxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Thu May 02 2002 - 15:22:14 GMT-3
I think you might find folks quite open to discussion if you happened to
enter into it with any amount of tact. Launching as you did in an
inflammatory and slanderous tone really doesn't lay the groundwork for
constructive discussion.
At 11:33 AM 5/2/2002 -0400, Peter Rosenthal wrote:
>That's interesting. I thought your banner was still on the GS website. I
>didn't think that you would pay for "endorsements" but having banners helps
>I'm sure. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up.
>
>I'm glad that someone agrees that this should be on the commercial list as
>Howard has already specifically stated that he would like people to use his
>racks to do these labs. That sounds pretty commercial to me. But, I've
>noticed that he prefers to dodge the issues and spin his response instead of
>answering them straight on. He'd probably make a pretty good politician.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wayne Lawson" <Wayne@IPexpert.NET>
>To: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "Craig Columbus"
><Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>
>Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:28 AM
>Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Peter,
> >
> > I understand and can see your point - but to clear something up -
> > IPexpert, Inc is NOT
> > paying Groupstudy a penny. In the past, we have paid for banner
> > advertisement as did
> > or does many other vendors). We're not paying Howard or Groupstudy for
>any
> > posts or
> > endorsements on this list. And, I do agree with you - this post should
> > have been started
> > on the commercial list.
> >
> > - Wayne
> >
> > Wayne Lawson
> > CCIE # 5244
> > Founder & CEO - IPexpert, Inc.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > To: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>;
> > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > > I've been a lurker for a LONG time. I have no problem at all with
>Howard
> > > making money or even promoting his stuff on this list. However, there
>are
> > > two issues.
> > >
> > > 1) Howard is not even a CCIE and therefore is no one to tell me or
>anyone
> > > else how to prepare. If he hasn't taken it he doesn't know what is
> > > required. If he does know what is required that means one of his
> > co-workers
> > > at Certification Zone told him very detailed info about the test. That
> > > would be my guess but I wouldn't know for sure. Even so, if he hasn't
> > > passed the lab he shouldn't be writing material. Would you go to med
> > school
> > > and let someone that isn't a doctor try and teach you surgery? I sure
>as
> > > hell wouldn't.
> > >
> > > 2) A new list has been created for vendors. Why is Howard not being
> > > restricted to posting his spam on that list? Well it's because of $$$.
>I
> > > used to think this list was intended to be vendor independent and fair
>for
> > > everyone. But, now I found out that they selectively filter posts from
> > > people that advocate their competitors. I don't like favoritism on
>lists
> > > such as this especially when people are buying that favoritism. If you
> > > don't think Groupstudy is getting paid by ipexpert, hello cumputers,
> > > getlabs, and certification zone then you should ask them. I'd be
>curious
> > > if they lie about it or are misleading in any way. If Howard wants to
> > post
> > > this stuff on the vendor lab and they stop filtering their competitors I
> > > wouldn't complain a bit. I think this is a good place for people to
> > > advertise their products or services. But, you shouldn't have to pay GS
> > to
> > > do so.
> > >
> > > You should also realize that Howard was always in this for the money.
> > > Before his new company he still worked for CZ which sells low to mid
>level
> > > training materials. He profited then as he does now.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > Peter,
> > > >
> > > > How long have you been subscribing to this list? Howard was a
> > meaningful
> > > > contributor long before his online rack venture.
> > > > But, playing devil's advocate, let's say that you're right. Let's say
> > > that
> > > > Howard only contributes to draw people to his for-profit ventures.
> > > > What's wrong with that? He contributes a VAST amount of information
>for
> > > > free everyday. If it leads to people buying his books or renting time
> > on
> > > > his racks, more power to him. I don't know if you're in the USA or
> > > another
> > > > country, but capitalism is what makes the USA great. If it weren't
>for
> > > > capitalism, there'd be no Cisco. They didn't start the company for a
> > love
> > > > of networking. Cisco, and every other for-profit venture, was started
> > > > because the founders had enough knowledge to build a product that they
> > > > thought people would want to buy. They were in it for the MONEY.
> > > > So, even if Howard's contributions to the list were purely motivated
>by
> > > > profit, it still wouldn't change the fact that he contributes to the
> > > > knowledge of thousands of list members each and every day. If he
>makes
> > a
> > > > billion dollars for doing so, I'll be the first to congratulate him on
> > his
> > > > success.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Craig
> > > >
> > > > At 12:11 PM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >His contributions are purely for monetary purposes. I know that most
> > > people
> > > > >on this list clearly see that. It's all business not out of the
> > kindness
> > > of
> > > > >his heart. He contributes hoping you'll be so impressed that you'll
> > buy
> > > > >labs from his partners and rent rack time from his company. Surely
> > > you're
> > > > >not this clueless and I know most people on this list are not fooled.
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> > > > >To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > >Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:43 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I can't tell if I'm reading poor sarcasm or pitiful ignorance.
> > > > > > I surely hope it's an attempt at sarcasm....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Howard contributes more meaningful commentary to this list per day
> > > than
> > > > > > most could contribute in a year. I, for one, appreciate that he
> > takes
> > > the
> > > > > > time out of his schedule to participate. I'm sure most others
>feel
> > > the
> > > > > > same way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Howard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:13 AM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Howard just likes to impress people with all of his supposed
> > > "contacts"
> > > > >and
> > > > > > >his smoke screen of knowledge. The guy is obviously a bookworm
>and
> > > has
> > > > > > >never worked on a real network. He always talks about things he
> > has
> > > > > > >"written" and not work he's actually done. Now I'm sure Howard
> > will
> > > > >respond
> > > > > > >with his classic list of places he's consulted for. But, most of
> > us
> > > know
> > > > > > >he's full of shit. Apparently Howard feels that his name carries
> > > some
> > > > > > >weight like Doyle (excuse me while I die laughing). Hopefully
>most
> > > of us
> > > > > > >see him for what he is. He uses this list as spam and gets away
> > with
> > > it
> > > > > > >cause Paul is being paid advertising $$$ from a few vendors that
> > > Howard
> > > > >is
> > > > > > >affiliated with. His book is definitely worthless and
>thankfully
> > I
> > > > >looked
> > > > > > >through it before buying it. Another bookworm that frequents
>this
> > > list
> > > > >has
> > > > > > >a crap design book out too. I used it to help get the fire going
> > in
> > > my
> > > > > > >fireplace. The funniest part is she reviewed his book on Amazon!
> > I
> > > > >wonder
> > > > > > >how many of Howard's other buddies and co-workers helped promote
> > this
> > > > >crap.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Ludwig A. Morales" <morales_l@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > >To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > > > >Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:59 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > listen, unlike the rest of the people here I couldn't care
>less
> > > that
> > > > >you
> > > > > > > > find my comment useful or not, trashing people is usually a
>way
> > to
> > > > >make
> > > > > > >you
> > > > > > > > feel better about yourself. I read your Designing Routing and
> > > > >switching
> > > > > > > > architecture a few days ago, didn't find it that useful, and
>you
> > > > >didn't
> > > > > > >see
> > > > > > > > me here trashing your book right? because that was just my
> > point
> > > of
> > > > >view.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My good old daddy use to say:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's not much greatness in holding honors, greatness comes
> > from
> > > > > > >deserving
> > > > > > > > them"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And those with CCIE (either hi or low numbers deserve to be
> > CCIE,
> > > > >maybe
> > > > > > > > except for those that found their number in a corn flake box,
> > > anyone?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sure JEFF (so you now him!!, great can you get me an
>autograph
> > > :P )
> > > > >was
> > > > > > >not
> > > > > > > > the first one to write about the Lollipop-Shape Sequence
>number
> > > space,
> > > > >now
> > > > > > > > when someone ask me from who did I learn about that, his
>getting
> > > the
> > > > > > >credit
> > > > > > > > because that's the book I've read, my comment was simply to
> > > > >demonstrate
> > > > > > >that
> > > > > > > > many "experience" networkers don't event open a book, "heckk
> > what
> > > do
> > > > > > >need
> > > > > > > > a book for or a cert as well I've been troubleshooting for X
> > year"
> > > > >(yeahh
> > > > > > > > stupid but maybe you've been doing it the wrong way).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A Final comment, I would relay more on a rookie doctor that
>just
> > > > >graduated
> > > > > > > > from medical school that from someone that just have
> > "experience"
> > > in a
> > > > > > > > surgery room and haven't been properly trained.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > PS. Once again experience has great weight (of course I put my
>6
> > > years
> > > > >in
> > > > > > >my
> > > > > > > > resume, though I've only been working with Cisco for 2 years,
>do
> > > my 6
> > > > > > >years
> > > > > > > > of experience means more to someone than Munib 2 Years with a
> > > CCIE, I
> > > > > > >don't
> > > > > > > > think so) I just see it wrong to take credit from the guys
>that
> > > > >recently
> > > > > > > > pass the exam, what do you feel threaten!!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:21 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At 9:14 PM -0400 4/30/02, Ludwig Morales wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >Cool dude, this is the logest tread i've seem im this
>mailing
> > > > >list's
> > > > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > > >without using "NDA" .
> > > > > > > > > >I was thinking to let it slide myself but naaaa.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >First of all the fact that he took less time than you could
> > > provee
> > > > >that
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >exam is easier now or that he's more discipline and more
> > > inteligent
> > > > > > >than
> > > > > > > > > >you, that depends on your perspective and the choise that
> > less
> > > > >ofends
> > > > > > > > you.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Now to the CCIE Vs. experince stuff, i may be wrong but i
> > > think
> > > > >you
> > > > > > >are
> > > > > > > > > >comparing apples and oranges, i think i told this story
> > before
> > > but
> > > > >well
> > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > >the heck..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Be careful about comparing anything to apples or you may
> > > irritate
> > > > > > > > > Priscilla. :-)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >in the first CCIE bootcamp i took our instructor conducted
>an
> > > small
> > > > > > > > survey
> > > > > > > > > >to measure the level of all atendees by making a list of
>the
> > > > > > >tecnologies
> > > > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > >was about to explain by drawing two columns on a sheet, one
> > was
> > > > >your
> > > > > > > > > >teorical experience and one was your practical experience
> > > regardig
> > > > >each
> > > > > > > > > >technology, one of the atendees sheets came to he's
>atention
> > > when
> > > > >he
> > > > > > >saw
> > > > > > > > > >that unlike all the rest of us this dude had more practical
> > > > >experience
> > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > >theory, when he asked how come his answer was that he was
> > able
> > > to
> > > > > > > > configure
> > > > > > > > > >and troubleshoot up to a point but for him sometimes the
> > router
> > > was
> > > > > > >like
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >black box of a plane, he didn't know what the hell was
>inside
> > > of
> > > > >it.
> > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > >the TAC told him to change some parameter he simply did it
> > and
> > > did
> > > > >not
> > > > > > > > > >understand what was the purpose (this dude has been working
> > > with
> > > > >Cisco
> > > > > > > > for 4
> > > > > > > > > >years) so you see, CUIE does give you something, the
> > knowledge
> > > of
> > > > >how
> > > > > > > > each
> > > > > > > > > >thing works, I dare anyone with more the 5 years of
> > experience
> > > but
> > > > >with
> > > > > > > > > >never laying a hand on Doyle's to explain to me how igrp
> > > calculate
> > > > >it's
> > > > > > > > > >metric (remember the k values?) or the Lollipop-Shape
> > Sequence
> > > > >number
> > > > > > > > space.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > :-) But how did JEFF learn it? (Actually, I asked him, and
>he
> > > got
> > > > > > > > > some informationr released, by Dino Farinacci IIRC). The
> > > lollipop
> > > > > > > > > sequence came from Radia Perlman (I was the reviewer of
>Jeff's
> > > OSPF
> > > > > > > > > chapter), and I believe she and/or the standard is credited.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > > best writeup of the lollipop is in her Interconnections
> > book --
> > > > > > > > > better, I think, than John Moy's.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Well anyway for those of you in the track dont let a coment
> > > like
> > > > >this
> > > > > > > > > >disapoint you, he's not right, he's not wrong that's just
>his
> > > point
> > > > >of
> > > > > > > > view
> > > > > > > > > >and you should not be worried about it (unless Robert is
>your
> > > boss,
> > > > > > > > jejejje)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >good luck to us, work hard and congratulate those who have
> > > achive
> > > > >their
> > > > > > > > goal
> > > > > > > > > >that helps us all aswell.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >OH and one last question, do you wake up in the morning and
> > > have
> > > > >all
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > >kwoledge to pass a CCIE exam? No? Then how do you get
>this
> > > > >kwoledge?
> > > > > > > > > >Uhhhhh trough experience?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Take a look at a picture of Scott Bradner sometime; he has a
> > > slight
> > > > > > > > > resemblance to Santa Claus. Vint Cerf is no spring chicken.
> > They
> > > > > > > > > still study.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >PS, been working in IT for 6 years now (thank God i'll be a
> > > CCIE
> > > > >that
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >been pushing and pulling routers for 6 years)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > let's see...I first started programming in 1966 or 7 (it
> > blurs)
> > > and
> > > > > > > > > actually put together my 1st network in 1970. Hmmm...this
> > week,
> > > I've
> > > > > > > > > learned some things about the application of control theory
>to
> > > > > > > > > routing protocols, about measurement timing issues in OSPF
> > > > > > > > > performance measurement, in some legal requirements for
>crypto
> > > in
> > > > > > > > > medical networks, and have been Perl programming since last
> > > week!
> > > > > > > > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Jun 13 2002 - 10:58:49 GMT-3