From: Geoff Zinderdine (geoffz@xxxxxxx)
Date: Wed May 01 2002 - 10:25:38 GMT-3
On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 19:09, Thomas, Varghese wrote:
> Hello
>
> I don't care what others say about Howard C. Berkowitz.
>
> I am grateful for his notes & comments and I highly value them.
>
> Howard, please do write to enlighten us.
I second that emotion. On a list that has shown such gems as the "CCIE
#9240" thread, people have demonstrated only that while they may have
years of experience with routers and switches, they have precious little
experience with decorum and just plain decency. I *look forward* to
Howard's posts. They are generally filled with content, and not just
vituperative venom directed towards those here who actually bust their
ass and get their number.
Nobody here can post some drivel like "the CCIE is turning into the
MCSE" and then berate Howard, who paradoxically has more experience AND
theoretical grounding than they can ever dream of having, merely because
he doesn't sit the lab. If his posts don't enrich you, use your much
vaunted "experience" and set up some procmail rules, and at the same
time use sounder editorial judgement before you post. How on earth
could whining about CCIE standards possibly enrich anyone? If you want
to whine, call the CCIE program and speak to them directly. They might
even clue you in that the program itself is set up to ensure a high
level of excellence working with their product, not merely keeping the
numbers low so that a bunch of macho cowboys can be usuriously
remunerated.
I am sick and tired of hearing this macho bs about experience vs. lab
study. It is the same tired polemic that I heard for years in academia
and I was hoping to avoid in network engineering. All I am hearing is
bitterness and jealousy and I really wish that these naysayers would
post *their* numbers if it is something so damn easy to do with "a
couple years of experience".
Remember, an asshole with a CCIE will be remembered primarily as an
asshole, and I won't let an asshole into *my* datacenter, even if they
can walk on water.
Howard should be welcome here, as should anyone else who has contributed
so much to both the standards process in the IETF and towards developing
sound pedagogical technique that helps us mere humans understand
technology's inner working.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Collegially,
Geoff Zinderdine
>
>
> Tx n RD
>
> The dog continues to bark, let the caravan proceed
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Craig Columbus
> To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Cc: hcb@gettcomm.com ; perosenthal@hotmail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:43 AM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> I can't tell if I'm reading poor sarcasm or pitiful ignorance.
> I surely hope it's an attempt at sarcasm....
>
> Howard contributes more meaningful commentary to this list per day than
> most could contribute in a year. I, for one, appreciate that he takes the
> time out of his schedule to participate. I'm sure most others feel the
> same way.
>
> Thanks Howard.
>
>
>
> At 11:13 AM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Howard just likes to impress people with all of his supposed "contacts"
> and
> >his smoke screen of knowledge. The guy is obviously a bookworm and has
> >never worked on a real network. He always talks about things he has
> >"written" and not work he's actually done. Now I'm sure Howard will
> respond
> >with his classic list of places he's consulted for. But, most of us know
> >he's full of shit. Apparently Howard feels that his name carries some
> >weight like Doyle (excuse me while I die laughing). Hopefully most of us
> >see him for what he is. He uses this list as spam and gets away with it
> >cause Paul is being paid advertising $$$ from a few vendors that Howard is
> >affiliated with. His book is definitely worthless and thankfully I
> looked
> >through it before buying it. Another bookworm that frequents this list
> has
> >a crap design book out too. I used it to help get the fire going in my
> >fireplace. The funniest part is she reviewed his book on Amazon! I
> wonder
> >how many of Howard's other buddies and co-workers helped promote this
> crap.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ludwig A. Morales" <morales_l@hotmail.com>
> >To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> >Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:59 AM
> >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > > listen, unlike the rest of the people here I couldn't care less that
> you
> > > find my comment useful or not, trashing people is usually a way to make
> >you
> > > feel better about yourself. I read your Designing Routing and switching
> > > architecture a few days ago, didn't find it that useful, and you didn't
> >see
> > > me here trashing your book right? because that was just my point of
> view.
> > >
> > > My good old daddy use to say:
> > >
> > > There's not much greatness in holding honors, greatness comes from
> >deserving
> > > them"
> > >
> > > And those with CCIE (either hi or low numbers deserve to be CCIE, maybe
> > > except for those that found their number in a corn flake box, anyone?)
> > >
> > > Sure JEFF (so you now him!!, great can you get me an autograph :P )
> was
> >not
> > > the first one to write about the Lollipop-Shape Sequence number space,
> now
> > > when someone ask me from who did I learn about that, his getting the
> >credit
> > > because that's the book I've read, my comment was simply to demonstrate
> >that
> > > many "experience" networkers don't event open a book, "heckk what do
> >need
> > > a book for or a cert as well I've been troubleshooting for X year"
> (yeahh
> > > stupid but maybe you've been doing it the wrong way).
> > >
> > > A Final comment, I would relay more on a rookie doctor that just
> graduated
> > > from medical school that from someone that just have "experience" in a
> > > surgery room and haven't been properly trained.
> > >
> > > PS. Once again experience has great weight (of course I put my 6 years
> in
> >my
> > > resume, though I've only been working with Cisco for 2 years, do my 6
> >years
> > > of experience means more to someone than Munib 2 Years with a CCIE, I
> >don't
> > > think so) I just see it wrong to take credit from the guys that
> recently
> > > pass the exam, what do you feel threaten!!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:21 AM
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > At 9:14 PM -0400 4/30/02, Ludwig Morales wrote:
> > > > >Cool dude, this is the logest tread i've seem im this mailing list's
> > > history
> > > > >without using "NDA" .
> > > > >I was thinking to let it slide myself but naaaa.
> > > > >
> > > > >First of all the fact that he took less time than you could provee
> that
> > > the
> > > > >exam is easier now or that he's more discipline and more inteligent
> >than
> > > > >you, that depends on your perspective and the choise that less
> ofends
> > > you.
> > > > >
> > > > >Now to the CCIE Vs. experince stuff, i may be wrong but i think you
> >are
> > > > >comparing apples and oranges, i think i told this story before but
> well
> > > what
> > > > >the heck..
> > > >
> > > > Be careful about comparing anything to apples or you may irritate
> > > > Priscilla. :-)
> > > >
> > > > >.
> > > > >
> > > > >in the first CCIE bootcamp i took our instructor conducted an small
> > > survey
> > > > >to measure the level of all atendees by making a list of the
> >tecnologies
> > > he
> > > > >was about to explain by drawing two columns on a sheet, one was your
> > > > >teorical experience and one was your practical experience regardig
> each
> > > > >technology, one of the atendees sheets came to he's atention when he
> >saw
> > > > >that unlike all the rest of us this dude had more practical
> experience
> > > than
> > > > >theory, when he asked how come his answer was that he was able to
> > > configure
> > > > >and troubleshoot up to a point but for him sometimes the router was
> >like
> > > the
> > > > >black box of a plane, he didn't know what the hell was inside of it.
> > > when
> > > > >the TAC told him to change some parameter he simply did it and did
> not
> > > > >understand what was the purpose (this dude has been working with
> Cisco
> > > for 4
> > > > >years) so you see, CUIE does give you something, the knowledge of
> how
> > > each
> > > > >thing works, I dare anyone with more the 5 years of experience but
> with
> > > > >never laying a hand on Doyle's to explain to me how igrp calculate
> it's
> > > > >metric (remember the k values?) or the Lollipop-Shape Sequence
> number
> > > space.
> > > >
> > > > :-) But how did JEFF learn it? (Actually, I asked him, and he got
> > > > some informationr released, by Dino Farinacci IIRC). The lollipop
> > > > sequence came from Radia Perlman (I was the reviewer of Jeff's OSPF
> > > > chapter), and I believe she and/or the standard is credited. The
> > > > best writeup of the lollipop is in her Interconnections book --
> > > > better, I think, than John Moy's.
> > > >
> > > > >.
> > > > >
> > > > >Well anyway for those of you in the track dont let a coment like
> this
> > > > >disapoint you, he's not right, he's not wrong that's just his point
> of
> > > view
> > > > >and you should not be worried about it (unless Robert is your boss,
> > > jejejje)
> > > > >
> > > > >good luck to us, work hard and congratulate those who have achive
> their
> > > goal
> > > > >that helps us all aswell.
> > > > >
> > > > >OH and one last question, do you wake up in the morning and have all
> >the
> > > > >kwoledge to pass a CCIE exam? No? Then how do you get this
> kwoledge?
> > > > >Uhhhhh trough experience?
> > > >
> > > > Take a look at a picture of Scott Bradner sometime; he has a slight
> > > > resemblance to Santa Claus. Vint Cerf is no spring chicken. They
> > > > still study.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >PS, been working in IT for 6 years now (thank God i'll be a CCIE
> that
> > > have
> > > > >been pushing and pulling routers for 6 years)
> > > >
> > > > let's see...I first started programming in 1966 or 7 (it blurs) and
> > > > actually put together my 1st network in 1970. Hmmm...this week, I've
> > > > learned some things about the application of control theory to
> > > > routing protocols, about measurement timing issues in OSPF
> > > > performance measurement, in some legal requirements for crypto in
> > > > medical networks, and have been Perl programming since last week!
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