From: Wu, Sean (sean.wu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 17:50:15 GMT-3
First, I would like to congratulate to CCIE #9240.
It's true that a lot of new stuff were added, but do you know how much
legacy stuff they had to know in order to pass the lab? LAT, AppleTalk, SNA
and others. Again, I am not comparing their technical expertise. What I am
trying to say here is their ability to catch the networking hype.
Back to our technical CCIE conversation, anybody know when Wireless/Voice
CCIE in communication track will be available?
What are the intent for them to put those two tracks?
Is wireless for Wireless LAN, mobile IP or does that include wireless
telephony such as GSM/GPRS as well?
For voice, most of us have experience with Call Manager, but what about
those voice applications, such as ICS, Unity?
Thanks,
Sean
-----Original Message-----
From: Mingzhou Nie [mailto:mnie@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:20 PM
To: Sean Wu; 'Peter Rosenthal'; thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
I don't agree, Sean. Do you know what had been tested in 1996/7.
There's no voice, not Qos, no new techs that has since been added. I
won't ever thing earlier CCIEs are better technically.
--- Sean Wu <vpivci@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Peter, I agree with you in that experience is important to this
> field,
> and most network managers tend to think in the same way. But what
> about
> the quality of experience, in my mind, 2 years' experience with
> intensive cisco hands-on is much more valuable than 5 years' first
> level
> network support.
>
> Also it is natural to see devaluation of CCIE cert these days. The
> devaluation is not only about the certification, it is about the
> career.
> The career to be a network administrator, no matter how senior you
> are,
> isn't exicting at all. Following others' tail all my life will drive
> me
> crazy. But what else can I do as a network administrator? Nothing.
>
> I respect those CCIEs with small numbers, because they can get it
> QUICK
> and without much help from bootcamps. Those smart people already got
> most out of their certs, and moved on to other area before it cools
> down
> completely.
>
> So what is next HOT field? Maybe "DNA Certified Bio-Tech Expert"?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am saying.
> Sure
> he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under close
> supervision as
> an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled access and
> that
> is
> what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years doing
> cabling.
> I
> do not even know what his prior experience is. It would make a HUGE
> difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
> administration at
> a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case then sure
> he
> would
> be allowed to work on the network with a lot less supervision. But,
> if
> he's
> a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to become a CCIE
> a
> year
> later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his time. Even
> Cisco
> recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking the lab.
> Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years of Cisco
> experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less than 2
> years
> experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend will
> continue
> until
> it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> "However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few months
> experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data center let
> alone
> be responsible for one of my networks."
> <p>
> Of course you should not make someone who is just really, really good
> at
> learning this material the chief of your entire network, but you
> would
> not
> even give him a badge to get into your data center to apprentice as a
> junior
> network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess he needs
> to
> pay
> his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has spent the
> requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the backup
> tapes,
> ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work for
> another
> four years doing whatever you consider appropriate CCNA-level work.
> Then,
> after eight years, you would permit him to start studying for the
> CCIE,
> I
> guess.
>
> I really admire the folks who learned their networking by many
> years
> of
> hard work in, say the military, doing everything from running wire,
> programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run right.
> This,
> in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career. Many of
> these
> people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to see them
> finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
> <p>
> But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had the
> misfortune
> of spending years in graduate school or in some other challenging
> field
> when
> we could have been racking up years of experience in computer
> networking.
> Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of someone with
> 20
> years of experience, but he should not even be permitted into your
> data
> center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY difficult
> material
> through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
>
> I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to concentrate
> on
> my
> ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in some
> "industry"
> jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what you
> learn
> after
> a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job at that
> time, I
> would not have found anything that would have permitted me to learn
> what
> I
> have learned in the last nine months or so.
>
>
> Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM >>>
> Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although unless the
> lab
> becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or any other
> written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with
> a
> few
> months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
> center
> let
> alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that lets
> someone
> with
> 16 months experience run their network is simply asking for trouble.
> No
> matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the necessary
> experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that amount of
> time.
>
> This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of thing.
> There
> will
> be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to CCIE"
> (already
> saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few months.
> Schools
> will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in 6
> months.
> The
> CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people wanting
> to
> take
> the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in and out
> of
> the
> exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity. Don't be
> surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click either
> A,
> B, C,
> or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE will
> someday
> be
> replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a fun ride
> while
> it
> lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the ride!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
> Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
> >
>
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