From: Tarek Sabry (tsabry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 17:43:29 GMT-3
Oh God, that one is going to last for loooooooooooooong!!! It's entertaining
nonetheless ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
Mingzhou Nie
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:20 PM
To: Sean Wu; 'Peter Rosenthal'; thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
I don't agree, Sean. Do you know what had been tested in 1996/7.
There's no voice, not Qos, no new techs that has since been added. I
won't ever thing earlier CCIEs are better technically.
--- Sean Wu <vpivci@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Peter, I agree with you in that experience is important to this
> field,
> and most network managers tend to think in the same way. But what
> about
> the quality of experience, in my mind, 2 years' experience with
> intensive cisco hands-on is much more valuable than 5 years' first
> level
> network support.
>
> Also it is natural to see devaluation of CCIE cert these days. The
> devaluation is not only about the certification, it is about the
> career.
> The career to be a network administrator, no matter how senior you
> are,
> isn't exicting at all. Following others' tail all my life will drive
> me
> crazy. But what else can I do as a network administrator? Nothing.
>
> I respect those CCIEs with small numbers, because they can get it
> QUICK
> and without much help from bootcamps. Those smart people already got
> most out of their certs, and moved on to other area before it cools
> down
> completely.
>
> So what is next HOT field? Maybe "DNA Certified Bio-Tech Expert"?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am saying.
> Sure
> he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under close
> supervision as
> an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled access and
> that
> is
> what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years doing
> cabling.
> I
> do not even know what his prior experience is. It would make a HUGE
> difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
> administration at
> a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case then sure
> he
> would
> be allowed to work on the network with a lot less supervision. But,
> if
> he's
> a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to become a CCIE
> a
> year
> later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his time. Even
> Cisco
> recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking the lab.
> Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years of Cisco
> experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less than 2
> years
> experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend will
> continue
> until
> it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> "However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few months
> experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data center let
> alone
> be responsible for one of my networks."
> <p>
> Of course you should not make someone who is just really, really good
> at
> learning this material the chief of your entire network, but you
> would
> not
> even give him a badge to get into your data center to apprentice as a
> junior
> network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess he needs
> to
> pay
> his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has spent the
> requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the backup
> tapes,
> ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work for
> another
> four years doing whatever you consider appropriate CCNA-level work.
> Then,
> after eight years, you would permit him to start studying for the
> CCIE,
> I
> guess.
>
> I really admire the folks who learned their networking by many
> years
> of
> hard work in, say the military, doing everything from running wire,
> programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run right.
> This,
> in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career. Many of
> these
> people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to see them
> finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
> <p>
> But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had the
> misfortune
> of spending years in graduate school or in some other challenging
> field
> when
> we could have been racking up years of experience in computer
> networking.
> Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of someone with
> 20
> years of experience, but he should not even be permitted into your
> data
> center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY difficult
> material
> through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
>
> I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to concentrate
> on
> my
> ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in some
> "industry"
> jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what you
> learn
> after
> a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job at that
> time, I
> would not have found anything that would have permitted me to learn
> what
> I
> have learned in the last nine months or so.
>
>
> Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM >>>
> Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although unless the
> lab
> becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or any other
> written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with
> a
> few
> months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
> center
> let
> alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that lets
> someone
> with
> 16 months experience run their network is simply asking for trouble.
> No
> matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the necessary
> experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that amount of
> time.
>
> This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of thing.
> There
> will
> be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to CCIE"
> (already
> saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few months.
> Schools
> will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in 6
> months.
> The
> CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people wanting
> to
> take
> the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in and out
> of
> the
> exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity. Don't be
> surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click either
> A,
> B, C,
> or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE will
> someday
> be
> replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a fun ride
> while
> it
> lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the ride!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
> Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
> >
>
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