From: Sean Wu (vpivci@xxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 15:48:13 GMT-3
Peter, I agree with you in that experience is important to this field,
and most network managers tend to think in the same way. But what about
the quality of experience, in my mind, 2 years' experience with
intensive cisco hands-on is much more valuable than 5 years' first level
network support.
Also it is natural to see devaluation of CCIE cert these days. The
devaluation is not only about the certification, it is about the career.
The career to be a network administrator, no matter how senior you are,
isn't exicting at all. Following others' tail all my life will drive me
crazy. But what else can I do as a network administrator? Nothing.
I respect those CCIEs with small numbers, because they can get it QUICK
and without much help from bootcamps. Those smart people already got
most out of their certs, and moved on to other area before it cools down
completely.
So what is next HOT field? Maybe "DNA Certified Bio-Tech Expert"?
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:10 PM
To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am saying.
Sure
he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under close
supervision as
an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled access and that
is
what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years doing cabling.
I
do not even know what his prior experience is. It would make a HUGE
difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
administration at
a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case then sure he
would
be allowed to work on the network with a lot less supervision. But, if
he's
a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to become a CCIE a
year
later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his time. Even
Cisco
recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking the lab.
Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years of Cisco
experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less than 2 years
experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend will continue
until
it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
"However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few months
experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data center let
alone
be responsible for one of my networks."
<p>
Of course you should not make someone who is just really, really good at
learning this material the chief of your entire network, but you would
not
even give him a badge to get into your data center to apprentice as a
junior
network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess he needs to
pay
his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has spent the
requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the backup tapes,
ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work for another
four years doing whatever you consider appropriate CCNA-level work.
Then,
after eight years, you would permit him to start studying for the CCIE,
I
guess.
I really admire the folks who learned their networking by many years
of
hard work in, say the military, doing everything from running wire,
programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run right.
This,
in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career. Many of
these
people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to see them
finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
<p>
But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had the
misfortune
of spending years in graduate school or in some other challenging field
when
we could have been racking up years of experience in computer
networking.
Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of someone with 20
years of experience, but he should not even be permitted into your data
center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY difficult
material
through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to concentrate on
my
ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in some
"industry"
jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what you learn
after
a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job at that
time, I
would not have found anything that would have permitted me to learn what
I
have learned in the last nine months or so.
Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM >>>
Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although unless the
lab
becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or any other
written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a
few
months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data center
let
alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that lets someone
with
16 months experience run their network is simply asking for trouble. No
matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the necessary
experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that amount of
time.
This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of thing. There
will
be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to CCIE"
(already
saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few months.
Schools
will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in 6 months.
The
CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people wanting to
take
the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in and out of
the
exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity. Don't be
surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click either A,
B, C,
or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE will someday
be
replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a fun ride while
it
lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the ride!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
>
> This is clear proof that the CCIE is heading towards MCSE-land. Here
is
> another great example of someone who basically had their CCIE bought
for
> them. What happed to experience? This person has hardly seen a router
16
> months ago! What does this say about the future of the CCIE? I have
worked
> with a disturbingly large amount of CCIEs who inadvertently trash the
> certification because they completely fail in real world environments.
>
> With repetition and incentive you can teach any dog a trick.
>
> Rob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Church, Chuck [mailto:cchurch@USTA.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:52 AM
> To: 'Khan Munib'; 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>
>
> Kahn,
>
> Congratulations. It's a tough journey, without a doubt. But your
> persistence paid off.
>
> P.S. The CCIE online store is now open, according to an email I got
the
> other day. Nice stuff they've got!
>
> Chuck Church
> Sr. Network Engineer
> CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE
> US Tennis Association
> 70 W. Red Oak Lane
> White Plains, NY 10604
> 914-696-7199
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
> Khan Munib
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:22 AM
> To: 'ccielab@groupstudy.com'
> Subject: CCIE #9240
>
>
> Well Finally it my turn to send this mail!!!!!
>
> Passed yesterday in Brussels (3rd attempt). I was beginning to
wonder if
I
> would ever get there. Firstly I would like to thank God without who
nothing
> is possible. I would also like to thank my family for their immense
support
> and patience.
>
> It's been a hectic 16 month Journey from Dec 2000 when I attained my
CCNA
> and was just getting into networking and had hardly seen a cisco
router.
I
> have learnt so much over the last year, when I look back I cant
believe
how
> far I've com. My company, Fujitsu (formerly ICL) has given me
excellent
> support and carried the bill for all my exam attempts etc. I would
also
> like to send a special Thank you to all at Netlogic Consulting, They
have
> guided me along the whole path through CCNA, NP and IE. Their courses
were
> excellent and their after sales support proved invaluable to me in
getting
> prepared for the LAB. I would seriously recommend any of you guys in
the
> UK who are looking for a CCIE prep course to consider them,
> www.netlogicconsulting.com, their lab scenarios were key to me
understanding
> and learning all the different technologies.
>
> This list has also provided a great resource to find out info for
> me.......Although I have been a relatively passive member I have
learnt a
> great deal from the discussions and also been greatly amused by some
of
the
> OT discussions. Keep up the hard work everyone and don't give
> up.........everyone can get there in the end.
>
> This email is only for the use of its intended recipient. Its contents
are
> confidential and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does not
guarantee
that
> this email has not been intercepted and amended or that it is
virus-free.
>
> Munib Ali Khan
> <<...OLE_Obj...>>
> Network Services
> Cavendish Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2DY
> Tel: +44 (0) 870 234 8171 Internal: 7301 5515
> Mob: +44 (0) 7867 823214
> Fax: +44 (0) 870 234 9199 Internal: 7301 6531
> E-mail: Munib.Khan@services.fujitsu.com
> Web: services.fujitsu.com
>
> Fujitsu Services Limited, Registered In England no 96056, Registered
Office
> 26, Finsbury Square, London, EC2A 1SL
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