From: Michael Snyder (msnyder@xxxxxxx)
Date: Fri Apr 19 2002 - 23:25:32 GMT-3
I have some novice atm questions.
Mainly, what difference between a router with a ATM module and a switch
with ATM ports?
>From my CCNP study days, I learned a lot about vci/vpi, atm frame types,
lane, bus, etc. But that is as far as I got.
I understand that lane is not required for the CCIE lab, and now the
only atm we can/will see in general is mopa, and classic IP over atm.
Now, here is what is confusing me. Are all ATM switches doing/capable
of about the same functions as a LS1010? I searched Ebay tonight at got
a page full of atm switches.
BAY NETWORK CENTILLION 100 ATM SWITCH
Item # 2017270593
ATM Alcatel Omni Switch
Item # 2017501951
OLICOM CROSSFIRE ATM SWITCH - OC-9100 ***L@@K
Item # 2017580739
MADGE COLLAGE 540 TOKEN RING TO ATM SWITCH
Item # 2018280666
Are the above items in general, direct replacements for a ls1010 in a
home lab?
Is the main functionally of a ATM switch just to route interface vci/vpi
circuits to other interface vci/vpi's? In about the same way that a
frame-relay switch routes interface,dlci's to other interface,dlci's?
Funny in the ATM world the switches seem to do the routing, and the
routers switch packets onto and off of the ATM lines. Maybe they should
call ATM switches Layer Two Routers, and ATM routers, Layer Three
Switches. Heheh.
Final question. Assuming I'm on the right track, then the main rub of
having atm in a home lab, is having routers with atm interfaces? A 2610
with a DS3 ATM NM comes to mind, somewhere in the $7000 range.
Post final question, DSL seems to be build on top of ATM. Is there any
cheap dsl equipment that could be used in a home lab in an ATM related
way? I don't think I can put a DSLAM in my bedroom, but am willing to
think about it.
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Wes Stevens
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 6:04 PM
To: tlarus@mwc.edu; ccielab@groupstudy.com; signal@shreve.net
Subject: Re: ATM Router Selection (a must read!)
I added atm to my lab with one 7010 and one 7505. The 7010 with atm,
serial
and eth was $1100. The 7505 with an 8 port serial, 6 port ethernet,
vip2-40
and atm card was $2100. I bought a newbridge vivid atm switch for $200
instead of the ls1010. The 7010 only supports 11.3 but I get my 12.1
practice on the 7505. The advantage is that I don't have to pay any rack
time. The money I will save on rack time will be much more the
depriciation
on these routers. I also plan on taking the security lab after the r&s.
The
7505 will run ids for the security lab.
>From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
>Reply-To: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
>To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>, <signal@shreve.net>
>Subject: Re: ATM Router Selection (a must read!)
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:19:55 -0400
>
>I've been thinking a lot about this question, and I really appreciate
teh
>well-written analysis. I have personally concluded that ATM is just
fine
>to practice on cheap rental racks. I mean, for 40-60 dollars a
session,
>you can practice ATM on a rack with 3640s and LS1010 until you are blue
in
>the face, then you can rent another session at the same price and do it
>again. You can do this at around $50 a session for something like 80
>sessions before you spend as much as you spent on the cheaper option,
the
>two-upgraded 7000s option. Of course, you can then sell the 7000
routers,
>which only weigh as much as a cruise ship.
>
>Frankly, if you have the cash or credit, and INSIST on having ATM in
you
>home lab, it might be better to just lay out the cash for the 3640
option,
>but make sure you don't hold on to it forever until the prices decline.
>
>But hey, I used to think I would not buy voice stuff, and I went out
and
>bought that. Maybe I will change my tune on ATM, (after I win the 300
plus
>million dollars Big Game jackpot).
>
>I would definitely buy 3640 or 2662 with ATM if I won the lottery.
>
>
>Tom Larus
>
>
> >>> Brian <signal@shreve.net> 04/16/02 16:54 PM >>>
>How to add ATM to your CCIE lab cheap, Brian Feeny CCIE #8036
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Wanting to add ATM to your lab? Do it cheap! Yes it can be done
>expensivly or cheaply, both are actually kind of expensive, but very
>different costs:
>
>Typically the first reaction to add ATM is to run out and buy a
>Lightstream 1010. You don't need to do this. You can practice with
>just about any ATM switch out there, Bay, Nortel, etc. Even cheap $200
>ones. Its good to use MultiMode OC3 interfaces since thats what your
>going to findon most routers used for labs.
>
>For those of you hardcore people wanting a Lightstream, be prepared
>to pay at least $2500 minimum. You will need a Chassis, an ASP, and
>at least 1 CAM and a few PAMs. The cheapest you can do is:
>
>L1010 Chassis
>L1010-ASP-B-FC1 ASP module
>WATM-CAM-2P 2-port carrier module
>WAI-OC3-4MM 4-port OC3 interface
>
>The above is probably $2500 minimum, probably more like $4000, and
about
>$1200 of it is in the chassis alone! One way to cut costs is to use a
>5509 or 5513 catalyst. On these switches, the last 4 slots have
>packetized backplanes and are essentially L1010 chassis (last 5 slots).
>You can usually get a 5509 and use it both as your cat5k switch and
your
>l1010 ATM switch! saves a little money.
>
>Now, the downside is the switch is the cheapest part anyways :). The
real
>cost of adding ATM to your lab is in the routers.
>
>Most people want to go for the throat, and run out and buy modules for
>2600 or 3600 series. This is when they find the NM-1A-OC3MM modules.
>These modules cost $2500.00 on the used market! Thats $5000 just for 2
>modules, and you still need a switch and cables and cant do full mesh!
>
>Another alternative is to use older 7000 series routers. The 7000 is
the
>7-slot version and the 7010 is the 5-slot version. Cards are cheap for
>these and easy to pick up. You can add 4 or 8 port serial cards, 2/4/6
>port ethernet, 2/4 port token ring, hssi, atm, etc. These routers were
>backbone routers not too long ago. The downside of the 7000 series is
>they only goto IOS 11.2. Now for things like frame switching and ATM
you
>can still do alot of stuff up to 11.2, including CLIP, SVC, PVC, etc.
And
>of course you can still get alot of life out of a router like this as a
>frame switch and basic multiprotocol beast doing some ospf/bgp/etc.
Since
>token and ethernet cards are so cheap (example: a 6-port ethernet card
>might run you as cheap as $125), you can use it for DLSW and all kinds
of
>bridging (SRT/SRB/etc).
>
>They make Fast Eternet blades for these routers as well, so you can do
>VLAN's form them. CX-FEIP-1TX, CX-FEIP-2TX, CX-FEIP2-1TX,
CX-FEIP2-2TX.
>Sure they are expensive for FastEthernet though, about $800-$1200
>generally to add a 1 or 2 port blade, but I have some more tips below
to
>possibly make that cheaper!
>
>When Cisco had the 7000 series, the routing and switching functions
>(routing and switching of packets) was broken down into 2 seperate
cards:
>The Route Processor (called the RP) and the Switch Processor (called
the
>SP). Cisco made 2 versions of the RP, the standard RP which had 16MB
of
>memory and then RP64, which had 64MB of memory. For the switch
processor,
>Cisco offered a 500k version and a 2MB version. Also cisco offered a
>version of the switch processor called the Silicon Switch Processor
which
>could do a new and faster form of switching called silicon switching.
>
>These were the kings, and life was good. 7000 reigned for a long time
and
>was quite usefull. But then Cisco came out with a new series, called
the
>7500 series. For this they used the same chassis as the 7000 series!
The
>5 slot version of the 7500 was called the 7505, and the 7 slot version
was
>called the 7507.
>
>Instead of using an RP and SP, the 7500 series used one card. This was
>called the RSP. You see they combined the Routing and Switching
function
>into 1 card, instead of having 2 seperate cards. The first card was
>called the RSP1 (later came the RSP2, RSP4, and RSP8). The RSP1 could
>goto 128MB and had the ability to take PCMCIA cards.
>
>7500 series were not restricted to the full sized blades of the 7000
>either. They created a module called a VIP (Versatile Interface
>Processor), and a VIP had 2 slots on it. Inside a VIP you could
install a
>port adapter (PA). The VIP had its own memory and processor. So you
buy
>putting VIP's in your router, you can have a more distributed setup,
with
>memory, and processor handled by the VIP. Inside a VIP you could stick
say
>1 FastEthernet PA (PA-FE-X) and 1 ATM PA (PA-A1-OC3MM).........so it
>allowed you to get more milage out of your slots. Those same PA's are
the
>ones that work in the 7200 series, like the 7206. The 7200 series
became
>a VIP-less platform, where the VIP is built into the chassis and all
you
>need is the PA's.
>
>Cisco started making the later 7000 modules compatible with the new
7500
>series. They did this so that peoples investment would be protected if
>they ever wanted to upgrade to a 7500 they would not have to go and buy
>all new cards. So the later revisions of most 7000 series cards are
7500
>compatible. If you ever want to see if your cards are 7500 compatible
you
>can check CCO (serach for "75000 compatibility").
>
>Ok, so the 7000 people had a path to migrate to a 7500 series, and
would
>only have to buy the new chassis. Even the power supplies from a 7000
>would fit into a 7507, and the power supplies from a 7010 would work on
a
>7505............it looked like cisco was doing something good by
providing
>the path.
>
>The people with the 7000's were not 100% happy though. There
equipment,
>including there RP's were being End Of Lifed, and IOS support was going
to
>stop with 11.2. Cisco decided to come out with a replacement module
for
>the RP, called the RSP7000. The RSP7000 is very much like an RSP1. It
>can run the LATEST IOS images. Even better it would allow the 7000
series
>to use cards especally designed just for the 7500's..........like the
>VIP's and the PA's that go inside them.
>
>The RSP7000 went in the SP slot, and the RP slot would be empty, but
Cisco
>also developed a RSP7000CI card to go into that slot. This card IMHO
was
>just a marketing gimmick. "What do we tell people to do with the empty
>slot?", "I know! We'll make a card a tell them they need it!" So cisco
>makes this RSP7000CI card, which is practically a bare circuit card,
but
>has a few chips on it. Its job we are told is to monitor the
temparature
>of the RSP7000 processor to prevent overheating. In al documentation
>they say you must have this card to use an RSP7000, the truth is you
>don't. I have run many RSP7000's without this RSP7000CI card. The
>RSP7000CI can be hard to find as well, and usually fetches about $500
when
>you do find it.
>
>So where am I going with this?
>
>If you buy a 7010 with an RP / SP, you have a good router than can use
>cheap interfaces (frame switch, ATM) but can only goto IOS 11.2. Still
a
>good deal, especially if you only spent a few hundred bucks, or even
$1250
>with ATM and the works.
>
>but if you stick a RSP7000 into a 7000 series router, you just turned
it
>into a 7500. yes a 7500. You can use all the cards of the 7500, the
>latest IOS just like the 7500, and all you suffer from is that you have
>half the backplane speed (like 622MBps instead of 1.2Gbs). You can use
>the same PA's and VIP's out there just like 7200's and 7500's.
>
>You can add a FastEthernet PA to a 7000 with RSP7000 installed for $250
if
>you find a good deal! ATM for $250-300, 4-port serial cards for $125!
>
>In short you have created an IOS 12.2 capable router, with lots of
slots,
>that can do lots of cool stuff for not so much money.
>
>Think about this.............remember those 2600/3600 ATM modules the
>NM-1A-OC3MM's? They were $2500 each.......just for the module, not
>counting the cost of the router. Now look at this rough estimate of
what
>it might cost to get a 7000 series enhanced router:
>
>7010 $400
>RP $100
>SP $100
>ATM $300
>
>So $900.00, thats like 1/3rd the cost of just the module alone in a
3600!
>
>Now you say you cant goto IOS 12.2 etc, well consider this:
>
>7010 $400
>RSP7000 $1000
>VIP2-20 $250
>PA-A1-OC3MM $500
>
>$2150, and you have everything a 3600 could dream to be and more.
Cheaper
>modules, ATM, etc. You could add fastethernet to the above for about
$300
>more! $2150 barely buys you a 3640 chassis.
>
>A 3640 can do voice, it does have that over a 7000 series, however, I
will
>post about making router selection for voice in a future posing.
>
>$1000-$2000 is alot to spend for routers, I agree. But if your going
to
>have to spend that much, to get ATM, or FastEthernet or what have you.
>Make those dollars count, consider a 7000 series vs. 3600 series.
>
>If anyone would like to discuss any of these options further, contact
me
>off list. I move alot of 7000 series gear, both RSP7000 enabled and
not.
>
>Brian
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>Brian Feeny, CCIE #8036 e: signal@shreve.net
>Network Engineer p: 318.222.2638x109
>ShreveNet Inc. f: 318.221.6612
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