From: Matt Wagner (miguknom@xxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Mon Oct 01 2001 - 21:08:27 GMT-3
Scott,
I don't disagree with you per se, but I want to point out that there are
still a lot of folks (like me) who never go ta a "bootcamp" or get the "how
to pass the lab" manual. This is why that thread a few weeks ago about
"first attempt CCIEs" pissed me off so badly.
Question: Who is smarter, someone who invests $20,000 in tutoring and
passes on the first attempt or someone who lives in BFE with no resources
and has to go take the lab just to find out where he or she stands in terms
of preparation?
Answer: The one with the higher average score on IQ tests. Or maybe the
one that can do VLSM in their head the fastest. Maybe...
I don't know what will happen with the CCIE program. Maybe it will be
devaluated, and maybe it won't. I think that as long as it takes as people
have to sacrifice and prepare as much as we have in order to pass it, then
only the right caliber of people will obtain it. Most people I know aren't
willing to spend the money, let alone the time and mental energy to get this
cert.
That said, if J.K. is right and this really turns into a big brain dump and
the pass rate AS COMPARED TO THE NUMBER OF APPLICANTS suddenly goes up
(remember that people in China are suddenly getting access to the program
and that doesn't hurt us much), then I hope that Cisco will be responsive
and raise the bar. I also hope that they make it very scary for a CCIE to
work in a place that virtually violates the NDA. I frankly don't understand
the desire to teach people to get certs. It might be a good job in the
short term, but eventually it is suicide, isn't it? I hope that after I get
my CCIE, nobody else is able to pass it and the value of the cert
skyrockets. I'm sure that offends some people, but I'm in this for money,
not community.
I think that in 5 or 10 years everyone on this mailing list will be doind
really well because we once pursued the CCIE cert. If people in 5 years
don't have this great vehicle to help them get ahead, well, so what? Maybe
they'll just have to go to college (yikes)...
Sorry for the stream of semi-consciousness.
Matt
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Scott Morris" <smorris@mentortech.com>
Reply-To: "Scott Morris" <smorris@mentortech.com>
To: "'routerjocky'" <elouie@yahoo.com>, "'John Kaberna'"
<jkaberna@netcginc.com>, <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Subject: RE: New R&S Exam Tidbits
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:59:31 -0400
Well... Ya know.. I've been quiet about this topic for a while now, but
it's beginning to get irritating.
The 1-Day CCIE is not going to have any different effect on the nobility of
the CCIE than all the study material did... Ya know. I got my CCIE back in
the days when we had to study ALL BY OURSELVES!!!! We didn't have umpteen
books about the lab, and course guides, and bootcamps and all that stuff to
help us along, or guide us.
We studied with the doc CD, and really had to outline and go through
everything, 'cause that's what the exam entailed...
Did people complain about the death of the CCIE when people like Caslow
started writing books and teaching classes, or ccbootcamp started coming out
with labs??? Perhaps some people did, but many didn't. Has it affected the
value of the CCIE? Well, there's certainly more CCIEs than there were
before, but I really don't see it as being devalued. All in all, I've only
run across one person who passed the CCIE that I still consider an idiot. I
figure that's not too bad for the law of averages.
The 1-day CCIE won't have a big effect in the long run either. Cisco is
popular, the certification has gotten lots of press, therefore more people
know about it. The same people who believe they can earn $80k by just
passing the MCSE will rush out to believe they can earn double that for just
passing their CCIE. It'll still be fewer people who have it per capita!
Take a look at the sheer number of people in the IT industry today compared
to a few years ago. Someone posted passing percentages compared to a few
years ago. Well, I'd say that was a stronger argument against all the study
guides and classes than anything else. But in the popularity of it, we just
have to keep it difficult! I think that Cisco is doing a good job of
keeping up the technical level. I respect Bruce Caslow, and his (many)
opinions. With that in mind, if he believes the 1-day exam will be
sufficiently difficult to test that which is needed, then I will believe it.
I'll sit back, sip a brew and remember the days gone by where candidates had
no guidance... And had to make it up as they went along... All by
themselves... In the two-day exam.
Relax. Life goes on, and it will be fine! Get back to studying!
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
routerjocky
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 5:10 PM
To: John Kaberna; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: New R&S Exam Tidbits
> IMO, this is going to lead to "lab braindumps" now that any monkey can
see
> the entire test instead of earning each section. Since they only have a
few
> different versions of the test what would stop a training company from
> getting their hands on the 6 or 8 tests by having candidates memorize the
> exams? I think it would be very feasible and likely to happen.
valid concern, but this exam is just a certification for "a certain level of
competancy", so if they can 'braindump' it, more power to them. Those folks
are easy to spot when they're being hired, though... just as there are
MCSE's who have never touched a server, there might be folks who can't even
login to a router using SSH (I'm one of those, btw), or who know how to
configure legacy DDR (because dialer profiles were req'd on the CCIE), or...
whatever.
And I do indeed raise my hand and glass to being "any monkey" ;-) I'm
nothing special...just an internetworking engineer that likes to steer
packets around. The bad news is that the braindumps for the lab are ALREADY
available - just not publicly dispersed. Trust me, lots of CCIE's
especially recently do not observe the NDA very strictly, and many of them
giving that info out underground and not publicizing it up here in public.
Networkers 2000 CCIE Power Session contributes to that in some way, too, so
I won't just blame the dishonorable.
>
> Also, no troubleshooting means we'll have a bunch of lab rats with no
real
> experience. TS was the one section that seemed to test real experience.
> Their claim that TS is required throughout the exam now is a joke. What
> they are claiming is NO different from the current format. If you
configure
> something and it doesn't work that requires TS. How is that any
different
> from the two day format? How are they going to test that by changing a
> config register a router that is reloaded ignores its config? How will
they
> test password recovery? I could go on and on. I think not having TS is
a
> major problem.
I can envision how troubleshooting could be incorporated into the the
one-day format - you'd just have less time to deal with the problems that
are injected into the scenario/startup. Maybe you'd start with routers that
are partially configured with different passwords, wrong DLCI's, bad SPIDs,
convert legacy DDR to dialer profile...and I'm not even thinking "out of the
box" yet, because I already get that when I buy used equipment, or go to a
customer site where they say "I don't know the password, can you break into
it for us?" It's sometimes harder to start with a partial config than
starting with a clean slate
>
> I think it's funny that they said "time is not your friend." I know I
had
> tons of time during my test. Puhlease. Time has always been a factor in
> the lab. It's been that way for years. I'd like to see a copy of a
2-day
> test next to a 1-day test to see if they actually cover as many topics
aside
> from TS. I'm willing to bet anything that they don't. If they do then
> great. At least the core topics will be just as difficult although
without
> TS I really don't think it's the same test.
I'm willing to bet that they do cover as many topics, and I'll find out,
since I've taken the two-day before (okay, that was 5 years ago, but have a
memory like an elephant!!!). I'm sure some of our other list members will
have that same experience. I can see the booby traps that they'd put into
the exam, all repeatable, where if you can't get past it, you're 'stuck'
just like in the two-day lab if you get 'stuck' configuring the WAN
backbone, for example.
>
> Sorry to be so negative guys. But, Cisco has a wait list problem and
this
> is their answer on how to solve it. Their goal is NOT to make the exam
> harder or keep the community as exclusive as it has been. I suppose it
will
> just take some time to adjust to the fact that it is changing for the
worst.
> The fact that they are considering having proctors give the exam via a
> webcam proves to me they are not dedicated to keeping the same quality.
Why apologize for coming from your truth? You have your CCIE, and all of us
5-digit CCIE's will just study the braindumps, get to just the topics
required for the CCIE, and get our number and work alongside you more
qualified guys ;-) You have an opportunity to take a one-day lab in some
other CCIE discipline, and perhaps after experiencing it you'll decide that
it's just as harrowing as the two-day lab...blow your steam...though I'm not
sure why you're so emotional about it. Many if not most of us still DO work
to get the complete knowledge and then prove it via the certification
process, and some others do the certification to get the piece of paper.
Everyone's mileage will vary.
-e-
striving to be the first 5-digit CCIE with the assistance of braindumps and
cheat sheets
I read over this twice to make sure that I'm coming from the right place
>
> John Kaberna
> CCIE #7146
> NETCG Inc.
> Cisco Premier Partner
> www.netcginc.com
> (415) 750-3800
>
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