Re: frog is quad ccie now - wtf?

I think 'scriping' can be very safely be considered an understatement of
SDN. While Cisco ACI is not exactly SDN, it can be somewhat portrayed to be
'glorified scripting'. :-)

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 6:52 AM, Ahmed Hussain <engine10_at_gmail.com> wrote:

> i worked with a customer who was thrilled with a presentation of ACI and
> trying to automate his datacenter. He has deployed a couple of nexus boxes.
> After a week of that presentation called me up again and asked me "hey mate
> when are you going to come down and design / deploy that OSPF configuration
> on those routers / switches we were talking about" :D
>
> ACI / DevOps / opendaylight looks all good. Then ppl talk about hey learn
> programing to make ur life easier, learn python ... well DUH!! i had bein
> in networking for more than 10 years, on a daily basis i use scripting
> (perl / bash) to make my life easier. A little bit of scripting in
> networking is not a new thing, some ppl just love to create fancy acronyms
> and wants to add more to the marketing table ..
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Joe Astorino <joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Congratulations, Frog! Best wishes in whatever it is you decide you want
> > to do man.
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:16 PM, Chris Rae <chris.rae07_at_me.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Great analogy
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > > On 20 Apr 2015, at 11:30 pm, Hubert Hinsley <
> hubert.hinsley_at_gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > Please excuse my ignorance because I do not know who Wayne Gretsky
> is!
> > :(
> > > >
> > > > To use a hockey, or sporting, analogy...I would suggest that as long
> as
> > > you
> > > > are also a very good hockey player (read 'network engineer') then it
> > does
> > > > not matter where the puck is, has been, or is going to be...
> > > > It doesn't even matter which position you might play in does it?
> > Players
> > > > often change position over the course of their careers don't they?
> > > > What I mean to say is that as long as you invest in yourself and have
> > > good
> > > > skills, I am sure you will be fine and have a fantastic career in
> this
> > > very
> > > > interesting IT/Network world.
> > > >
> > > > With regards to where you want to go, I would suggest you should go
> > with
> > > > what interests you, purely based on the fact that if it interests
> > > you..you
> > > > will probably find it much easier to learn?
> > > >
> > > > Like yourself, I have very little interest in Voice.
> > > > I am interested in other technologies (RS and SP), and I am sure
> there
> > is
> > > > still enough scope in there to keep me busy for very many years,
> > without
> > > > having to worry myself silly (right now!) about SDN, DevOps,
> Scripting,
> > > > Programming....or whatever the latest fashion happens to be...! ;0)
> > > > I'm sure that I will probably have to learn these skills at some
> point
> > > but
> > > > I would not consider them to be my 'core' skills as a network
> engineer.
> > > > Those 'core' skills would have to be the protocols and the
> > > technologies...
> > > >
> > > > Consider this....If somebody makes a 'mother' of a mistake whilst
> > > > configuring an Enterprise/SP network with the fancy new SDN tool of
> the
> > > > day, is knowing SDN/DevOps/Scripting going to help you save your job?
> > > > Or is it going to be whether you are able to pick your way through
> > OSPF,
> > > > BGP, MPLS..etc..etc...and solve that critical network problem that
> you
> > -
> > > > or, possibly your over-enthusiastic colleague - just created? ;0)
> > > >
> > > > At the end of the day this is about 'paying-the-rent' and
> > > > 'putting-food-on-the-table' isn't it?
> > > > As well as spending hours, weeks, months, years studying and taking
> > exams
> > > > of course, but that's the fun bit... ;0)
> > > >
> > > > I am sure that we all have our preferences but I'm guessing that the
> > > > primary reason we do this is to be employed in a good role, in a good
> > > > company, doing some interesting 'stuff' most of the time?
> > > >
> > > > For all of the effort and pain that we go through to reach our
> desired
> > > > level of expertise, whatever that might be, I much prefer that
> > particular
> > > > option to the alternative "do you want fries with that?".... ;0)
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, work hard, be patient, be good at what you do, and the
> > results
> > > > and opportunities will appear and come your way for sure.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards, Hubert.
> > > >
> > > > On 20 April 2015 at 15:46, Andrew Podosenin <
> > andrew.podosenin_at_gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hubert,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks for the explanation. I remember the saying by hockey player
> > Wane
> > > >> Gretzky: b I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it
> has
> > > >> been.b So, I am trying to better understand where the puck is going
> > in
> > > >> networking world. Originally I thought it would be PfR, now I think
> it
> > > is
> > > >> the SDN. My friends have successfully identified the explosion of
> VoIP
> > > and
> > > >> multicast for high-frequency trading. Both are quite happy now. I am
> > not
> > > >> sure whatb s the next big one.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> As to the personal competencies, I have 5-6 years of networking
> > > >> experience, CC[N,S,D,I]P, extensive Check Point and ISS, some Sonic
> > Wall
> > > >> and Netscreen. Have interest in SP stuff, hate voice, do not care
> for
> > > >> storage or design, do not mind wireless and security. Went to the
> > > Triangle
> > > >> several times. Last summer aced the troubleshooting but failed the
> > build
> > > >> (~60%). Have some formal education (PhD in comp chem. and MS in CS).
> > > >>
> > > >> Trying to better understand what should be added to my skill set.
> Most
> > > >> importantly b I do not see where the puck is now going. If you have
> > any
> > > >> ideas on the subject b please share.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Andrew
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Hubert Hinsley <
> > > hubert.hinsley_at_gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hello Andrew,
> > > >>> From what I see hear in the UK, as well as good all round Cisco R&S
> > > >>> skills, a network engineer will certainly need to have knowledge of
> > > Nexus
> > > >>> and Juniper.
> > > >>> This is for what I would call layer-2/layer-3 "connectivity" skills
> > and
> > > >>> experience.
> > > >>> Alternatively, for those roles with a security focus,
> > > ASA/CheckPoint/Palo
> > > >>> Alto/Fortinet/Juniper is in demand.
> > > >>> For those roles with a load-balancing focus then you should look at
> > F5,
> > > >>> NetScaler and ACE.
> > > >>> For those roles with an SP focus, then definitely IOS-XR, Juniper
> > > Junos,
> > > >>> and Alcatel exposure too.
> > > >>> You will quite likely be asked to have a mix of all of the above,
> > with
> > > >>> maybe some skills being more important than the others depending on
> > the
> > > >>> specific role and situation.
> > > >>> But I guess you cannot do the 'high-end' stuff unless you have a
> good
> > > >>> understanding of the basics.
> > > >>> So I would start from a Cisco R&S foundation, which I would
> consider
> > to
> > > >>> be pretty essential, and build from there, depending on what
> > interests
> > > > you.
> > > >>> Obviously, your mileage may vary, depending on where you are. Hope
> > this
> > > >>> helps.
> > > >>> Best Regards, Hubert.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On 20 April 2015 at 13:33, Mark <infosecaz_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> if you have solid and genuine experience it s a worthwhile than
> crap
> > > ccie
> > > >>>> 's , in the market for the last 10 years ccie lab exams are sold
> > out
> > > >>>> openly in the market , cisco is also aware about it they are
> > playing
> > > all
> > > >>>> dirty tricks to change the labs frequently and again sold in
> market
> > > big
> > > >>>> money making business
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Andrew Podosenin <
> > > >>>> andrew.podosenin_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Dear Experts,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So, if you were to start your career today, what skills would you
> > > >>>> sharpen
> > > >>>>> besides passing CCIE R&S lab? Things that come to my mind are:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Hands-on PfR, hands-on SDN, design to CCDP level, some IOS-XR,
> some
> > > >>>> NX-OS,
> > > >>>>> deeper knowledge of EEM, one scripting language (Perl or Python),
> > > >>>> TRILL or
> > > >>>>> equivalent.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Did I miss much?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Andrew
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> P.S. I fully understand that extensive industry experience is
> > > >>>> required, I
> > > >>>>> am
> > > >>>>> asking about the areas of concentration.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On
> > Behalf
> > > >>>> Of
> > > >>>>> gaston brait
> > > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 5:53 PM
> > > >>>>> To: Narbik Kocharians
> > > >>>>> Cc: Naveen; Radioactive Frog; Chris Rae; Cisco certification
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: frog is quad ccie now - wtf?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The programmability is only one side of what aci is trying to do.
> > > >>>>> It is also a change on how we design networks, and most of our
> core
> > > >>>>> networking skills will remain relevant ( ACI is an IS-IS underlay
> > > >>>> fabric
> > > >>>>> with vxlan as the overlay) MP-BGP is user to inject external
> > routes.
> > > >>>> All
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>> programming you will do to enable the contracts so the epg can
> talk
> > > to
> > > >>>> each
> > > >>>>> other, will still be based on networking principles.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I do see programming making it's way into part of the skillset
> that
> > > >>>> will be
> > > >>>>> needed, but no the core.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2015, at 5:33 PM, Narbik Kocharians
> > > >>>>>> <narbik_at_micronicstraining.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Do you know that there is a shortage of CCIEs in the world?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Yes, I agree eventually things will evolve, but ACI will not
> take
> > > >>>> over
> > > >>>>>> such that your knowledge of R&S, Security, SP, Wireless, Storage
> > and
> > > >>>>>> etc etc will become obsolete. ACI will be another topic another
> > > >>>>>> technology, another way of doing things. ACI is not for every
> > > >>>> company.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> From time to time I work for Cisco, IBM, TTI, and train students
> > > from
> > > >>>>>> Accenture, WWF and many more and I talk to them about their new
> > > >>>>>> project, and I don't think that I am clueless.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Naveen <navin.ms_at_gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Narbik - You misunderstood. My ccie was definitely useful until
> > > now,
> > > >>>>>>> but don't think it will be valued the same going forward..
> > Neither
> > > >>>>>>> Programming nor Networking is rocket science. Both needs good
> > > amount
> > > >>>>>>> of dedication to be productive. Whether a programmer needs to
> be
> > > >>>>>>> taught Networking or vice-versa is certainly a different topic
> > and
> > > >>>>>>> needs due discussion in another thread. I'll let folks decide
> and
> > > >>>> choose
> > > >>>>> for themselves.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Naveen.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> PS: For disclosure sake, I've done Programming, Networking and
> > > >>>> worked
> > > >>>>>>> for Cisco, Ericsson. Looking at present and whats coming in
> near
> > > >>>>>>> future, I know what am talking about.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Narbik Kocharians <
> > > >>>>>>> narbik_at_micronicstraining.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> So your knowledge of CCIE in any track is useless? Try to
> teach
> > a
> > > >>>>>>>> programmer networking.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Naveen <navin.ms_at_gmail.com
> >
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Please allow me to say something here. Don't bet on CCIE
> alone.
> > > >>>>>>> Networking
> > > >>>>>>>>> Landscape has changed. The market is asking for more DevOps
> > style
> > > >>>>>>>>> work than traditional LAN/WAN admin style jobs.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Skills such as Python and REST APIs to control
> > routers/switched,
> > > >>>>>>>>> Application based Networking using Open Stack, Open Daylight
> ,
> > > >>>>>>>>> OpenFlow are starting to gain importance. These new
> > technologies
> > > >>>>>>>>> are designed for networks to be automatable and
> reconfigurable
> > in
> > > >>>>>>>>> real time, which should eventually render traditional CCIEs
> > less
> > > >>>>>>>>> useful. Depending on how much
> > > >>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>> one's active career left, it's time to consider this change.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> You might argue our protocols might not change, but that
> might
> > be
> > > >>>>>>>>> true
> > > >>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>> the near term (2-3 years). Just look around and see what Open
> > > >>>>>>>>> Networking standards and protocols have done in the last 2-3
> > > years
> > > >>>>>>>>> for Data
> > > >>>>>>> centers,
> > > >>>>>>>>> Enterprises, and Service Providers. Its time our CCIE
> training
> > > >>>>>>>>> partners re-brand themselves to this new wave.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Naveen.
> > > >>>>>>>>> CCIE25432.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, April 19, 2015, Narbik Kocharians <
> > > >>>>>>>>> narbik_at_micronicstraining.com>
> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Congratulations mate. Well done.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 4:41 AM, Radioactive Frog <
> > > >>>>>>> pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Chris,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I know where you are coming from. Most CCIE (not everyone)
> > > would
> > > >>>>>>>>> design,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> production environment in the lab way!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I have seen them in real action where those lab engineer
> > never
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> seen
> > > >>>>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>>> real
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> gear and don't know what really the RJ45 console vs DB9 pin
> > > >>>> looks
> > > >>>>>>>>> like.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> In my last role a newly minted out uni double CCIE asked me
> > > what
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>> ATM.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> He
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> said "i know" but i wanted to confirm. I said what do u
> know
> > > >>>> then
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> he
> > > >>>>>>>>>> said -
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Is it ATM machine where we withdraw money and that ATM
> > > connected
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to ethernet interface. He was fresh from university with
> > 2XCCIE
> > > >>>>>>>>> (RS/SEC). I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> was like.... wtf. I jokingly said "yes' ATM is the WALL
> where
> > > >>>> you
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> go
> > > >>>>>>>>> pull
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> money (but only $100 dollars notes).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Shocking!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Chris Rae <
> > > chris.rae07_at_me.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Quad CCIE is an awesome effort.....as long as you dont
> > design
> > > >>>>>>>>>> production
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> environments like the Lab then we are all fine! b :o8
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Chris
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Apr 2015, at 4:32 pm, Radioactive Frog <
> > > >>>>>>> pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gents,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, some good news...
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> My target is to stop studying by 2017. No more study
> > > >>>> afterward.
> > > >>>> http://bhatkoti.com/2015/04/16/another-quad-ccie-in-downunder/
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are 4xCCIE good enough? What are your thoughts?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -frog
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> __
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>> ____
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> *Narbik Kocharians*CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP,
> Security)
> > > >>>>>>>>>> *www.MicronicsTraining.com* <
> > http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Sr. Technical Instructor
> > > >>>>>>>>>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> > > >>>>>>>>>> A Cisco Learning Partner
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> __
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>> ____ Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> *Narbik Kocharians*CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> > > >>>>>>>> *www.MicronicsTraining.com* <
> http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> > > >>>>>>>> Sr. Technical Instructor
> > > >>>>>>>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> > > >>>>>>>> A Cisco Learning Partner
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> __ Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> *Narbik Kocharians*CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> > > >>>>>> *www.MicronicsTraining.com* <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> > > >>>>>> Sr. Technical Instructor
> > > >>>>>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> > > >>>>>> A Cisco Learning Partner
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> _ Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ---
> > > >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
> > software.
> > > >>>>> http://www.avast.com
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Regards
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > >>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> > > >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > > >
> > > >
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >
> > >
> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Joe Astorino
> > CCIE #24347
> > http://astorinonetworks.com
> >
> > "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
> >
> >
> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
CCIEx2 (R&S|Sec) #19963
Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net