Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

This is actually good stuff and no one is forced to read it :)

On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 6:15 PM, John Neiberger <jneiberger_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a *huge* fan of all of the training providers involved in this
> discussion, so I'm not going to take sides. I've been to training with
> Paul, I loved Narbik's workbooks, and I truly love the INE stuff. All
> of you are top-notch instructors. With that said, I have to say that
> this continuing flame war is beginning to tarnish everyone involved.
> Justified or not, some of these comments--again, by everyone-- could
> end up being negative marketing and I'd hate to see that because every
> single one of the training providers who participate on this list have
> something good to offer.
>
> Please let this thread and its associated flames die, so that we all
> may get back to eating our chosen elephants.
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Brian Dennis <bdennis_at_ine.com> wrote:
>> Narbik,
>> Sorry I confused you as being under Skyline-ATS but now are back at
>> HelloComputers, Trinet or whoever. But like everyone said let me just
>> continue to troll you offline so you don't have to keep making empty promises
>> like you have for the CCIE Data Center recently or the CCIE R&S videos before
>> that.
>>
>> Lastly keep your "Narbiketing" (Narbik + Marketing) emails off the list and I
>> won't troll you in the first place as this is a technical mailing list.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP/Voice)
>> bdennis_at_ine.com<mailto:bdennis_at_ine.com>
>>
>> INE, Inc.
>> http://www.INE.com<http://www.ine.com/>
>>
>> From: Narbik Kocharians <narbikk_at_gmail.com<mailto:narbikk_at_gmail.com>>
>> Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:16 PM
>> To: CCIEAgent <ccieagent_at_verizon.net<mailto:ccieagent_at_verizon.net>>
>> Cc: Brian Dennis <bdennis_at_ine.com<mailto:bdennis_at_ine.com>>, Paul Negron
>> <negron.paul_at_gmail.com<mailto:negron.paul_at_gmail.com>>, Cisco certification
>> <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com<mailto:ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>>
>> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> I said I would not respond to you if you talk crap, you are still talking
>> crap, but what you have mentioned here needs a response.
>>
>> Also you talk about these new CCNA-SP and CCNP-SP classes that as someone
>> pointed out isn't even listed on Narbik's or the website of the company you
>> work (Skyline-ATS) as available. If you're going to offer solutions to people
>> here them you should have them available.
>>
>> BTW, our website is being redone, you will see the classes soon. Having an SP
>> foundation class that gives the students two more certifications and a very
>> firm and a SOLID knowledge does NOT hurt at all, especially when the price is
>> going to be VERY reasonable. I use to do that with my Soup-to-nuts book and I
>> had people passing the lab left right and center, I am talking something like
>> that. I am sure you will have it on your website very soon.
>>
>> When people said they wanted VPLS I put the line cards in to support it. When
>> people said they wanted dedicated racks for the bootcamps, I put more in.
>>
>> First of all having your own racks or renting it from a firm makes no
>> difference to the students.
>>
>> Secondly, what you provided for your students when they asked for it, were
>> things that should have been there to begin with, VPLS is part of the
>> blueprint, and you think that you did them a favor? It s like saying I gave my
>> students a frame-relay switch when they asked for it. Dude . how did you
>> getaway with it?
>>
>> Besides, the way you mention racks it s like you have to spend millions of
>> dollars, you can have two 12Ks and have 8 to 10 students have their own pods.
>> So you see it is not that big of a deal, I am sure you know how to do this
>> setup, if not, let me know, we can get in your box remotely and set it up for
>> you. We have helped many vendors; you won t be the first or the last one.
>> NOW ..the power consumption is another story, especially if you are in CA.
>>
>> Or how about the "authorized" Cisco 360 videos where you can buy a single 90
>> minute video with a lab for $395. People need to be able to pay with Cisco
>> Learning Credits (CLCs) because no one in their right mind would fork out $395
>> cash for 90 minutes of video on one topic. Where do they come up with this
>> pricing? Wall Street? Maybe since Cisco says less than 1% of people are
>> Cisco CCIE certified the pricing is for the 1% ;-)
>>
>> As far as 360 Videos, my students don t have to purchase them and I have never
>> pushed them to purchase anything. They use CLCs to sign up for the boot camps
>> and not to purchase training videos, you CANNOT purchase VoDs/books using the
>> CLCs, and you should know that.
>> BTW, there is a huge difference between a Pinto and a BMW.
>>
>> We are a small boutique style learning partner where on Fridays when the
>> students are flying back home or driving back home they don t feel like they
>> were raped, they feel GR8, because they know they got what they paid for and
>> then some.
>>
>> Man, at the end of the day you have to be happy and love doing what you are
>> doing, and thank God for that blessing, I love what I am doing. I hope that I
>> can teach like this forever. I am 54 and God willing I will continue until I
>> feel that the quality is no longer there, or a company buys me out, or I go
>> bankrupt or health issues, whatever else
>>
>> Narbik, The company that sponsors you for your Cisco Learning partnership
>> (Skyline-ATS) contacted us about a partnership about a year ago.
>>
>> Brian, Micronics Networking & Training Inc. (My company) is NOT an SO under
>> Skyline-ATS, BTW, we are under Element K which recently changed their name to
>> skillsoft.
>>
>> I could never teach the 360 CCIE classes knowing that I only have really 2.5
>> to 3 days of real instruction between the labs they have do during the class.
>> I mean they fly in for a 5 day CCIE class and the first day they give you an
>> assessment? Why waste a whole day on an assessment? It's only a 5 day class.
>> Why not have them take the assessment before they come to the class?
>>
>> The 360 material is a generic guide, you can change it, add to it, cover more
>> stuff and/or do what ever you like, this is what I am doing today in everyone
>> of my boot camps, I cover more than what they recommend to cover. I give them
>> 4000 pages of up-to-date supplemental materials, I will NOT teach any other
>> way, I will NOT use overhead projection to configure labs for my students, I
>> have my style and you have yours, it is not fair to have both of us teach the
>> same way, and Cisco understands this.
>>
>> Narbik will never be Brian, and Brian will never be Narbik.
>>
>> But I think you did not want to join them because you did not want to pay
>> Cisco $750 per student, actually most of my students LOVE their assessment
>> labs, and other material that they get from 360, and it gives them a different
>> perspective. 35 labs for 600 dollars is not a bad deal at all, because the
>> quality is very good.
>>
>> Yes, if you think conducting two assessment labs is a total waste of time, I
>> don t, but mate our hours are long, on Mon Wed 9:00 AM 10:30 or later,
>> normally a little later, on Thursdays we start 9:00 AM and we finish 5:00 AM,
>> and on Fridays we are back in the class by 9:00 AM. I have not had one
>> complaint (Thank God), listen . you shouldn t generalize like that.
>>
>> I know that you promised everyone that you would not respond to this thread
>> anymore but feel free since you already responded a few times since then. I'm
>> sure you'll want to chime in as to why you use LockLizard over doing what INE
>> does by being 100% DRM free.
>>
>> So that is all you could say? You guys don t use locklizard and we do .is this
>> why you called me out to respond?
>> As far as DRM, hey this is my decision, and I like to go that route, I like my
>> front door locked, it does not mean that I think that everyone is a thief,
>> it s just the way I like to do business. I have a lot to lose, if and when I
>> have nothing worth protecting, I will stop using locklizard.
>>
>> Locking the front door does not guarantee anything, but I have spent months if
>> not years writing these books and it hurts to see people share them, so I like
>> to protect myself as much as I can. That s all.
>>
>> After telling them how well we're doing and fast INE is growing (making Inc
>> 5000 for the third year in a row next year) they said that we would be "out of
>> our minds" to become Cisco authorized.
>>
>> Brain, it s NOT the locklizard, it is not the amount of money the company
>> makes, even if you turn into a fortune 500 company (God willing), this is
>> teaching, in real estate it s location, location and location, in boot camps
>> it s instructor, instructor and instructor. The students don t care how much I
>> made last year and how much I am going to make this year. Making Inc 5000 for
>> the third year in a row, does not mean anything to me, you can t be bigger
>> than ENRON.
>>
>> I read posts, blogs, and see some VoDs that talk about different IOSes and
>> technologies, some of them are so way out there, it s incredible, but NOT ONCE
>> I have seen anyone talk about teaching techniques; how do I teach this so
>> called complex technology, I bet some have NOT even tried to teach themselves
>> how to teach. Amazing concept.....i bet they don t even know where to begin,
>> more amazing part of this entire thing is that these guys are instructors.
>>
>> Since you have been back the relationship of our company has gone to hell, go
>> back on vacation mate or change your attitude.
>>
>> Additionally not being Cisco authorized means I can offer scholarships like we
>> did this year (http://ine.co/2tv4w). I can offer affordable training to
>> people in "developing" countries.
>>
>> We do not call it scholarship, or wave a flag saying Hey .look what we are
>> doing .. because you need a tax break, if you have to mention it, you better
>> not do it, trust me on this, next time don t even mention what you have done
>> and whom you have helped, I guarantee that you will feel much better, when you
>> mention it, it shows that you did it for bragging rights. We do much more than
>> that, what you have done is NOT enough.
>>
>> To end this thread, always remember, INE does not intimidate me, and I am NOT
>> impressed at all. This stuff will continue unless we do what you recommended,
>> which was let s not disagree in public forum to the point that it starts an
>> argument.
>>
>> I much rather be friends, you can not have enough friends in this world, if I
>> offended you in any way, I apologies, but let s not do this ever again. Let s
>> put an end to this stupid useless stuff. I was just answering your questions
>> and responding to what you wanted me to respond to.
>>
>> God bless my friend
>> Like Paul said my last post, if you like to continue let s take this offline.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 8:05 AM, CCIEAgent
>> <ccieagent_at_verizon.net<mailto:ccieagent_at_verizon.net>> wrote:
>> Nice ad.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com<mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com>
>> [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com<mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com>] On Behalf Of
>> Brian Dennis
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 2:25 AM
>> To: Paul Negron
>> Cc: Cisco certification
>> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>>
>> Paul,
>> If you're so concerned about people learning the technologies and not just
>> passing the CCIE SP lab, then why don't you offer equipment for them to
>> practice for the SP lab? Seems that people getting hands-on practice would
>> be key if you're as concerned as you say you are. The only help you seem to
>> be offering is for someone to buy another class from you. You saying it's
>> the best solution when the history of Cisco CCNA and CCNP authorized
>> "bootcamps" (combining 3 or 4 five day classes in a single
>> bootcamp) has been horrible to say the very least. A surprising percentage
>> of Cisco "authorized" certification bootcamps are riddled with instructors
>> telling students to use "TestKing" or "Pass4Sure" as they know they can't
>> teach what they need to teach in the limited timeframe. Also you talk about
>> these new CCNA-SP and CCNP-SP classes that as someone pointed out isn't even
>> listed on Narbik's or the website of the company you work (Skyline-ATS) as
>> available. If you're going to offer solutions to people here them you
>> should have them available.
>>
>> As far as offering equipment to help people prepare for the SP lab goes when
>> our SP racks were booked out for 90 days I put more in. When people said
>> they wanted VPLS I put the line cards in to support it. When people said
>> they wanted dedicated racks for the bootcamps, I put more in. Now each
>> student has their own dedicated rack. Same way for your bootcamps I would
>> hope. I do all this as a service to our customers because a workbook doesn't
>> have much value unless you can actually practice the material in it. Please
>> tell me that you're providing this same level of service to your customers
>> so they can properly prepare for the SP lab exam.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP/Voice)
>> bdennis_at_ine.com<mailto:bdennis_at_ine.com>
>>
>> INE, Inc.
>> http://www.INE.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/29/12 7:52 PM, "Paul Negron"
>> <negron.paul_at_gmail.com<mailto:negron.paul_at_gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>I never said they need to start back at the CCNA level. Careful.
>>>(If you carefully search the thread, I never came close to saying that)
>>>I'm going to assume your not TRYING to be a smart ass either. ;-)
>>>
>>>I agreed with Brian McGhan when he said that MOST CCIE's would not need
>>>it.
>>>
>>>Learning something right the first time is how it should it should be
>>>done. My point is to NOT assume we are NOT just trying to get people
>>>to pass an exam to become a CCIE. ( I think we agreed on this)
>>>
>>>I have run into my fair share of CCIE-SP's that LEARNED IT RIGHT THE
>>>FIRST TIME and STILL do not know how to APPLY it correctly.
>>>
>>>CCNA level does not = INFERIOR. It can actually mean
>> trying to learn
>>>right the first time.
>>>
>>>Sometimes the Advanced Approach skips past some basic things that WE
>>>(You and I) have experienced, but these newer CCIE's have not. That's
>>>why they come to us. RIGHT?
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>Paul Negron
>>>CCIE# 14856
>>>negron.paul_at_gmail.com<mailto:negron.paul_at_gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Brian Dennis
>> <bdennis_at_ine.com<mailto:bdennis_at_ine.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>> Okay I see what you're saying now. Someone who goes through a
>>>>vendor's R&S CCIE training material that focuses on them becoming an
>>>>"IOS command jockey" so they can pass the CCIE lab without truly
>>>>learning the technologies NEEDS to start back at CCNA level for their
>>>>next CCIE track.
>>>> As you stated INE's philosophy is different in that someone won't
>>>>need to start all over again and relearn say basic OSPF or basic BGP
>>>>if they went through our R&S CCIE training. This is exactly why we
>>>>have so much coverage of the technologies themselves in our products.
>>>>
>>>> Honestly I think it's hard for you to argue that learning something
>>>>right the first time isn't the best option but I'm glad we finally
>>>>cleared it up.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Brian Dennis, CCIEx5 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP/Voice)
>>>> bdennis_at_ine.com<mailto:bdennis_at_ine.com>
>>>>
>>>> INE, Inc.
>>>> http://www.INE.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/29/12 6:04 PM, "Paul Negron"
>> <negron.paul_at_gmail.com<mailto:negron.paul_at_gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think what Kenneth is saying is what I was trying to allude to in
>>>>> my earlier point. If you walk into a Service Provider Environment
>>>>> saying you are a CCIE-SP and you think its about weather you know
>>>>> OSPF or ISIS from R&S, your going to get laughed at and make every
>>>>> CCIE-SP look like a joke. It is simply a different perspective in
>>>>> that environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> The differences for IOS-XR in the real world are HUGE compared to
>>>>> the CCIE-SP routing and switching portion. The posted documentation
>>>>> has a lot of things that are not used practically.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if your perspective is simply looking at the CCIE test
>>>>>scenarios, then listen to what Brian says.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my CCIE bootcamp, I really try to help you out for the exam and
>>>>>the
>>>>>20
>>>>> years I have spent in the Service Provider space. I don't want you
>>>>>being laughed at. ;-) I enjoy explaining the reasoning behind the
>>>>>concepts. In other words?..
>>>>> the
>>>>> BASICS!!! I do not ASSUME you already know. In fact, I had a couple
>>>>>of R&S candadites in the last bootcamp that actually enjoyed that
>>>>>perspective and I would say they were quite sharp.(Sharper then
>>>>>most I have met)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, I still agree with Narbik. The INE perspective still
>>>>>offers a different view, which is useful when attempting a CCIE
>>>>>exam.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Negron
>>>>> CCIE# 14856
>>>>> negron.paul_at_gmail.com<mailto:negron.paul_at_gmail.com>
>>>>> 303-725-8162
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Brian McGahan
>> <bmcgahan_at_ine.com<mailto:bmcgahan_at_ine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, there are obviously differences between the two OSes, both
>>>>>>>>in hardware and software, but for any true CCIE this should not
>>>>>>>>be an issue.
>>>>>>>> The point of the CCIE is to obtain the level of expert in network
>>>>>>>>engineering. As an expert you should have a deep theoretical
>>>>>>>>knowledge of why and how different networking technologies work.
>>>>>>>>OSPF is OSPF, BGP is BGP, whether it's on IOS, IOS XR, NX-OS,
>>>>>>>>JunOS, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, that's the kind of viewpoint that causes outages. When you
>>>>>>>start
>>>>> thinking like this, you tend to make some very, very bad assumptions.
>>>>>Of
>>>>> course, you might live you in a world >where vendors never change
>>>>>options or defaults between platforms or even OS revisions on the
>>>>>same platform, never mind the consideration of interoperability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, there are obviously different caveats to the different
>>>>> implementations, but at the core they are all functionally the same.
>>>>>If
>>>>> you
>>>>> know OSPF, and you know OSPF on IOS, you're not reinventing the
>>>>>wheel trying to learn OSPF on IOS XR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you're a CCIE in R&S - an *expert* in
>>>>>>>>Routing & Switching technologies - and you need to start back at
>>>>>>>>CCNA level for the Service Provider track, then you have failed.
>>>>>>>>You've failed yourself as you've missed the entire point of CCIE
>>>>>>>>to begin with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's something about this I find to be fairly offensive, and
>>>>>>> quite a bit
>>>>> elitist. Do you honestly believe that achieving a CCIE means you
>>>>> never have to go back to basics? You never have to review? That you
>>>>> don't have that much to learn?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you're dealing with an unfamiliar platform and a new OS, I
>>>>>>> think it's
>>>>> prudent to probably start with the basics. I'd expect a CCIE to be
>>>>>able to breeze through it, since it should simply be a matter of
>>>>>reconciling the differences with what you already know, but to say
>>>>>that you've failed yourself by making an attempt to cover all the
>>>>>bases? I think that's a bit too cavalier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you pass the CCIE R&S and you're not an
>>>>>> expert in
>>>>> OSPF then something went wrong. It's not meant to be offensive, but
>>>>>the whole idea of CCIE to begin with is elitist. It doesn't mean
>>>>>you know everything, but it *should* mean that at the end of
>>>>>obtaining CCIE you're an expert in a specific subset of
>>>>>technologies per the blueprint. I would think that for most CCIEs
>>>>>the path to SP shouldn't then be back to CCNA. If you go take a
>>>>>class in CCNA SP you're going to be following topics like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Describe the OSI and TCP/IP models and their associated protocols
>>>>>> to
>>>>> explain how data flows in a network
>>>>>> - Describe the structure of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses
>>>>>> - Describe bridging concepts and Layer 2 Ethernet frames
>>>>>> - Describe classful versus classless routing
>>>>>> - Describe ICMPv4 and ICMPv6
>>>>>> - Describe Frame Relay
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion this is not the right learning path to go from CCIE
>>>>>>R&S to
>>>>> CCIE SP, and would be a huge waste of time for most people. They
>>>>>would be better off spending their time reading through the
>>>>>documentation of XR to find the platform and feature differences,
>>>>>and then spend time reading the theory of topics they aren't
>>>>>already an expert in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security)
>> bmcgahan_at_INE.com<mailto:bmcgahan_at_INE.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.INE.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com<mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com>
>> [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com<mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com>] On
>>>>>>Behalf Of
>>>>> Kenneth Ratliff
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 3:19 PM
>>>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com<mailto:ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/26/12 7:29 PM, "Brian McGahan"
>> <bmcgahan_at_ine.com<mailto:bmcgahan_at_ine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, there are obviously differences between the two OSes, both
>>>>>>>in hardware and software, but for any true CCIE this should not be
>>>>>>>an issue.
>>>>>>> The point of the CCIE is to obtain the level of expert in network
>>>>>>>engineering. As an expert you should have a deep theoretical
>>>>>>>knowledge of why and how different networking technologies work.
>>>>>>>OSPF is OSPF, BGP is BGP, whether it's on IOS, IOS XR, NX-OS,
>>>>>>>JunOS, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, that's the kind of viewpoint that causes outages. When you
>>>>>> start
>>>>> thinking like this, you tend to make some very, very bad assumptions.
>>>>>Of
>>>>> course, you might live you in a world where vendors never change
>>>>>options or defaults between platforms or even OS revisions on the
>>>>>same platform, never mind the consideration of interoperability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you're a CCIE in R&S - an *expert* in
>>>>>>> Routing & Switching technologies - and you need to start back at CCNA
>>>>>>> level for the Service Provider track, then you have failed. You've
>>>>>>> failed yourself as you've missed the entire point of CCIE to begin
>>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's something about this I find to be fairly offensive, and quite
>>>>>>a
>>>>>> bit
>>>>> elitist. Do you honestly believe that achieving a CCIE means you never
>>>>> have to
>>>>> go back to basics? You never have to review? That you don't have that
>>>>> much to
>>>>> learn?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you're dealing with an unfamiliar platform and a new OS, I think
>>>>>> it's
>>>>> prudent to probably start with the basics. I'd expect a CCIE to be
>>>>>able to
>>>>> breeze through it, since it should simply be a matter of reconciling
>>>>>the
>>>>> differences with what you already know, but to say that you've failed
>>>>> yourself
>>>>> by making an attempt to cover all the bases? I think that's a bit too
>>>>> cavalier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>_______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Narbik Kocharians
>> CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
>> www.MicronicsTraining.com<http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
>> Sr. Technical Instructor
>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> A Cisco Learning Partner
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
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Received on Tue Oct 30 2012 - 21:15:05 ART