Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question

I think that was a a concise and astute observation Joe.

One I happen to agree with!

Paul

Paul Negron
CCIE# 14856
negron.paul_at_gmail.com

On Oct 27, 2012, at 12:31 AM, Joseph L. Brunner <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>
wrote:

> I can understand both of your arguments - and I'm not as experienced as a
teacher as you both - but I can say this -
>
> Each student is very different.
>
> Self Confidence in some is a cavalier attitude or lack of respect for the
material in others... I had a Student in my rather advanced CCNP Class (which
I guess would be CCNP-ROUTE Today? - anyway - he used the TK's to pass the
CCNP tests in the first 2 weeks of the class and laughed at the other students
for "sitting around and listen to that guy talk".
>
> Would that guy have excelled with either of your approaches? Probably
not...
>
> I have also interviewed my fair share of CCIE R&S's for different positions
at customer's offices. DHCP. ARP. DHCP SNOOPING. DAI. SPT Switchover.
>
> Nothing.
>
> Wow.
>
> It shouldn't be this hard for an "Expert"! They "passed" the lab, but have
no theory or debug memory in their hands to speak from...
>
> I think Brian's approach would work for me - but some would want Narbik's
approach of starting at the basics. To each his own.
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Narbik Kocharians
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 2:19 AM
> To: Paul Negron
> Cc: Imran Ali; Brian McGahan; Tom Kacprzynski; John Gitau; Cisco
certification; Shaughn; Yuri Bank
> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>
> Brain,
>
> If we go based on your philosophy, why would a good solid CCIE purchase your
workbooks or even attend a boot camp? They should just study on their own,
then, why did you write a book and purchased racks if this is your
philosophy?
>
> Many CCIEs (NOT ALL) take three to five attempts to pass, because some of
the vendors teach them how to pass the lab (I am NOT saying that they
> cheat) but the focus of their material is to help the students pass the lab,
*this is NOT bad*, but it is one philosophy. And the end result is that the
student ends up spending over 15K not to count the rack rental/purchase and
the time that they have spent studying, and they are happy that they got a lab
that they knew 80 percent or more of the subjects.
>
> Our philosophy is a little different, i guess our students will second that.
I believe that if these guys had gone back to basics (In certain subjects),
they probably would have saved themselves lots of time, money and
disappointment.
>
>
> The following is the curriculum for one of the CCNA-SP books that we teach,
can you identify how many of these topics are covered in the R&S blueprint?
>
> *Routed Network Technologies I*
>
>  Implement EIGRPv4 and EIGRPv6 on Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and
> IOS-XR routers
>
>  Describe route redistribution
>
>  Describe VRF
>
>  Describe GRE
>
> *Cisco Operating Systems and Platforms I*
>
>  Implement basic Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and IOS-XR CLI
operations
>
>  Implement basic Cisco IOS, IOS-XE and IOS-XR routers
> configurations
>
> *Transport Technologies*
>
>  Describe SONET and SDH
>
>  Describe DWDM, IPoDWDM, and ROADM
>
>  Configure 10 Gigabit Ethernet, 40 Gigabit Ethernet, and
> 100 Gigabit Ethernet interfaces on Cisco routers
>
>  Describe Frame Relay
>
>  Describe ATM
>
>  Describe Metro Ethernet
>
>  Describe DSL
>
>  Describe T1, T3, E1, E3, and ISDN
>
>  Implement PPP encapsulation on Cisco routers serial and
> POS interfaces
>
>  Describe cable (DOCSIS)
>
>  Describe the main BRAS and BNG routers functions in IP NGN
>
>  Describe various Passive Optical Network (PON) access
> technologies and FTTx
>
> *Security in the Network*
>
>  Describe IPsec
>
>  Describe the relationships between users, user groups,
> tasks groups and task IDs in IOS-XR
>
>  Describe common types of network attacks
>
> My friend this is just SOME of the subjects that WE are going to cover in
our CCNA-SP track, now if you like I can post some of the CCNP subjects so you
can see what Paul and I are referring to. Some of the CCIE-SP workbooks/boot
camps out there go as far as our CCNA/CCNP level.
>
> We have a workbook and a boot camp for CCIE SP track as well, and it has
three volumes and we are about to add three more volumes, because we are not
satisfied that a CCIE SP (A solid one) should ONLY know what the blueprint
identifies. I guess that is also another difference between us and some of the
vendors out there.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Paul Negron <negron.paul_at_gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> As Brian said,
>>
>>
>> If you are attempting an SP Bootcamp than you need not worry too much
>> about the major REAL LIFE differences.
>>
>> My point is an IOS-XR primer might be in order to see the differences
>> you WILL be experiencing. CCNA would be perfect for someone who is NOT
>> Route Switch Savvy though.
>>
>> For real life applications, XR is much more powerful in show and debug
>> commands that simply do NOT exist in IOS.
>>
>>
>> For the EXAM:
>>
>> There are NO route-maps so at any time they can pick at RPL which if
>> not prepared, you would have issues. For now it is light but they
>> could make it difficult whenever they feel like it.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Paul Negron
>> CCIE# 14856
>> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
>> 303-725-8162
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 26, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Imran Ali <immrccie_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> i am also looking for SP after RS, but apart from different syntax ,
>> for which i assume one or two week of practice is enough .
>>
>> what major software advantageous does XR have and IOS lacks?
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Paul Negron <negron.paul_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> My 2 cents,
>>>
>>> I agree that the learning curve of basic commands from IOS to IOS-XR
>>> is easy enough but the sub options carry some hefty differences. I
>>> can show you some flags in Multicast that might make you scratch your
>>> head a few times.
>>>
>>> The line cards are truly distributed and much different output is
>>> available then anything else for IOS that can help aid in
troubleshooting.
>>>
>>> I would agree that your workbook assumes that you would be at an
>>> Advanced CCIE R& S level. Narbik and I do not take that approach. I
>>> guess that is a difference of opinion. (Agree to disagree).
>>>
>>> If you have little experience with IOS-XR, I can see how you would
>>> say the differences are Very Minor.
>>> I've been messing around with it for 6 years and STILL sift through
>>> some cool stuff that can be very helpful.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Paul Negron
>>> CCIE# 14856
>>> negron.paul_at_gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:19 PM, Brian McGahan <bmcgahan_at_ine.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No offense Narbik, but I don't necessarily agree with this statement.
>>> If you're already at the CCIE R&S level then going back to CCNA SP
>>> is going to be a waste of time in my opinion. Passing CCIE R&S today
>>> already assumes that you already have an expert level understanding
>>> of layer 2 technologies, IPv4, IPv6, IGP, BGP, and Intra-AS MPLS L3VPN.
>>>>
>>>> CCIE SP is not a large stretch beyond this. It's essentially an
>>>> MPLS +
>>> BGP exam. If you *really* understand the core of MPLS already, then
>>> you just need to know how Inter-AS L3VPN works, L2VPN (which is very
>>> simple), and some enhanced services like Multicast over L3VPN, and of
>>> course IOS XR syntax.
>>>>
>>>> Tom, as to what you previously said:
>>>>
>>>> "I'm thinking that learning the theory and implementing it on IOS
>>>> would
>>> take significant time. Then applying that same knowledge to XR might
>>> not
> be
>>> as hard. I'm not sure if that makes much sense without knowing XR
>>> that much, but I would think that most of the features are similar
>>> with some
> new
>>> additional ones first implemented on the XR line. Anyone agree or
> disagree?"
>>>>
>>>> This is 100% correct. If you understand first how all the
>>>> technologies
>>> work on IOS, there is very little involved in porting this to XR. Of
>>> course there is a learning curve with the syntax, but beyond this the
>>> *vast* majority of features work exactly the same. After all,
>>> networking is highly based on open standards protocols, e.g. OSPF,
>>> IS-IS, BGP, LDP, etc., so as long as you understand the *why* behind
>>> them then it's very simple to understand the *how* on IOS XR. Of
>>> course there are caveats on XR, but are by far the minority.
>>>>
>>>> As for the INE workbooks and videos (I can't speak for anyone
>>>> else's),
>>> we already assume that you're at CCIE R&S level. This means we
>>> assume you are an *expert* at IGP and BGP. If you're not, then
>>> you're wasting your time trying to work on the SP technologies,
>>> because all their fundamental basis is coming from enterprise routing &
switching.
>>>>
>>>> As mentioned before in the thread, MPLS Enabled Applications should
>>>> be
>>> seen as required reading for this track. Beyond this I would mainly
>>> focus on the documentation. This of course assumes you are already
>>> at CCIE R&S level for the other topics.
>>>>
>>>> We've had an extensive number of candidates that were already CCIE
>>>> R&S,
>>> used INE's SPv3 ATC videos and the SPv3 workbook and then passed the
exam.
>>> Let me know if you have more specific questions about it.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Brian McGahan, CCIE #8593 (R&S/SP/Security) bmcgahan_at_INE.com
>>>>
>>>> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>>>> http://www.INE.com <http://www.ine.com/>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On
>>>> Behalf
>>> Of Narbik Kocharians
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:08 PM
>>>> To: Tom Kacprzynski
>>>> Cc: John Gitau; Cisco certification; Shaughn; Yuri Bank
>>>> Subject: Re: CCIE Service Providerv3 - General Question
>>>>
>>>> To All,
>>>>
>>>> The best way to approach this is to go through the SP-CCNA/SP-CCNP
>>> classes/materials, recently the old MPLS was removed and it was
>>> replaced with the new SP CCNA and CCNP, which i think was the BEST
>>> move Cisco has ever made for SP certs.
>>>>
>>>> You can start with SPNGN1 and then SPNGN2 for your CCNA end then
>>>> for
>>> SP-CCNP you need 4 courses: SPRoute, SPAdvRoute, SPCore, SPEdge.
>>>>
>>>> One of the best curriculums
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Tom Kacprzynski
>>>> <tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Whether Cisco is big in DWDM space or not is one conversation to
>>>>> have, but could you guys share with me what type of materials you
>>>>> used to study topics like DWDM, ATM or SONET for the CCIE SP
>>>>> written test? I know that these topics can be very deep in the
>>>>> amount of complexity
>>> and information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>> **
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:05 AM, John Gitau <jgitau_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> most of our clients run Cisco dwdm/optical gear
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25 Oct 2012, at 11:11, Shaughn <maniac.smg_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cisco are big in the DWDM/Optical space. I have worked with very
>>>>>>> large
>>>>>> ISP's running Cisco in that layer of the network.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CCIE # 23962 (SP)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 25 Oct 2012, at 9:54 AM, Yuri Bank <yuribank_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everyone says that Cisco will eventually release some kind of
>>>>>>>> virtualized platform for IOS-XR, but I don't see it happening.
>>>>>>>> Hell, even the versions of L3/L2IOU that are floating around
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> *not* officially released by Cisco. I think if anything, they
>>>>>>>> will go towards a hosted solution, similar to Junosphere, which
>>>>>>>> kind of sucks because I really like having my own lab to tinker
>>> with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dynamips running c7200s can do a lot of the technologies, so
>>>>>>>> using it learn the theory and fundamental configurations makes
>>>>>>>> a
>>> lot of sense.
>>>>>>>> I think this is what most people are doing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't think Cisco was big in the DWDM/SONET market (I've
>>>>>>>> seen ISPs running Fujitsu, Infinera, and Alcalu for optical
>>>>>>>> transport but never Cisco). I think the material on that
>>>>>>>> subject would be minimal. All very much theory based.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Yuri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Tom Kacprzynski
>>>>>>>> <tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Yuri,
>>>>>>>>> Good to hear from you. Looking over the written and lab
>>>>>>>>> requirements,
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> seems to be some differences. Written seems to have a lot more
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> like SONET, DWDM, ATM along with the MPLS and IGP. What have
>>>>>>>>> you used
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> these topics (SONET, DWDM, ATM)? The IS-IS books looks good,
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>> have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> check it out. I just got the MPLS book and started reading
>>>>>>>>> "Traffic Engineering with MPLS" by Eric Osborne.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking that learning the theory and implementing it on
>>>>>>>>> IOS
>>>>> would
>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> significant time. Then applying that same knowledge to XR
>>>>>>>>> might not
>>>>> be
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> hard. I'm not sure if that makes much sense without knowing XR
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> much,
>>>>>>>>> but I would think that most of the features are similar with
>>>>>>>>> some new additional ones first implemented on the XR line.
>>>>>>>>> Anyone agree or
>>>>>> disagree?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How are the rumors of virtualized XR platform? Any development
>>> there?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom Kacprzynski
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Yuri Bank
>>>>>>>>> <yuribank_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hey Tom,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've glanced over some of INE's material, and it looks pretty
>>> good.
>>>>>>>>>> However, workbooks are not the real concern, it's the lab
>>> equipment!
>>>>>>>>>> Anyways, I think studying for the CCIE-SP is no different
>>>>>>>>>> from the R&S. *Start with the theory* At least that is what
>>>>>>>>>> I've been doing. I just finished reading
>>>>> 'OSPF:
>>>>>>>>>> Anatomy of an Internet Routing Protocol' and 'MPLS Enabled
>>>>>>>>>> Applications'.
>>>>>>>>>> 'The Complete IS-IS Routing Protocol' Is next on my list.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Yuri
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM, HEMANTH RAJ
>>>>>>>>>> <hemanthrj_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tom
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was also with the same confusion as like you after
>>>>>>>>>>> finishing my
>>>>>> R&S.
>>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>>> now after purchasing Narbik Workbooks and INE materials for
>>>>>>>>>>> CCIE
>>>>>> SPV3. I
>>>>>>>>>>> felt they have covered the blueprint extensively. So i would
>>>>>> recommend
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> go for Narbik and INE WB if you want to pursue your SPV3.
>>>>>>>>>>> I am doing the same right now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Tom Kacprzynski <
>>>>> tom.kac_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now that I'm done with CCIE R&S, there is a void in my
>>>>>>>>>>>> evenings,
>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> date-nights with R1 and SW2 (oh memories) or practice labs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I
>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking of looking at the CCIE Service Provider. I wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from people that did their RS and moved on to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Service Provider track. From my initial research I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> noticing that workbooks don't
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be comprehensive as with RS, by that I mean not all topics
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>> covered
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> them (I could be wrong). Is that partly due to the hardware
>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements?
>>>>>>>>>>>> What sort of major difference did you noticed studying SPv3
>>>>>>>>>>>> vs RS
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> terms
>>>>>>>>>>>> of materials and preparation?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kacprzynski
>>>>>>>>>>>> CCIE#36159
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> ___
>>>>>> ___
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Problems arise because we talk,problems are not solved
>>>>>>>>>>> because we
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> talk So good or bad talk to your affectionate one's freely.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yours Friendly,
>>>>>>>>>>> H P HEMANTH RAJ
>>>>>>>>>>> CCIE#28593 (R&S)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Narbik Kocharians
>>>> *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
>>>> *www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>* <
>>> http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
>>>> Sr. Technical Instructor
>>>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>>>> A Cisco Learning Partner
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Narbik Kocharians
> *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> *www.MicronicsTraining.com* <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> Sr. Technical Instructor
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> A Cisco Learning Partner
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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Received on Sat Oct 27 2012 - 16:03:31 ART