Re: PhD vs CCIE from Bill6521 on 2012-03-06 (Ccielab archives 03/2012)

From: Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:08:17 -0500 (EST)

Hi Narbik,

Again agree to disagree. "The security guys don't like the R&S guys to touch
their security appliances, the Voice guys don't want the security guys around
their voice appliances". I think that may be true in world of big corporations
and in MSPs (Managed Service Providers/Network Operating Centres) but I can
tell you on projects where the job needs done and to budget a CCIE will
generally do what he is asked or needs to do. Are we really saying there are
Routing and Switching CCIEs out there that have never configured a firewall,
IDS/IPS, or a WLC etc - how sad. How do you broaden and enhance your skills ?

And thanks for realising the coffee thing was a joke !!!

Regards,

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Narbik Kocharians <narbikk_at_gmail.com>
To: Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>
CC: joe <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>; jazzsunn <jazzsunn_at_gmail.com>; ccielab
<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 19:53
Subject: Re: PhD vs CCIE

Bill6521,

35 years ago that was the case, if you were in IT, you did everything from
running jobs, doing installations, fixing JCLs, working on front end
processors, running and maintaining CICS, VTAM, MVS, VM and you also had to
take care of multi-drop links and international links, Data scoping, and
installation of all hardware as well. Later on you had the connectivity of PC
world to the main frames using Novel or MS or even Cisco's solution (EBCDIC
--> ASCII).

But these days, each department has its crew of professionals/engineers, the
security guys don't like the R&S guys to touch their security appliances, the
Voice guys don't want the security guys around their voice appliances. When
you go to a Service Provider environment you are totally lost because you are
not used to their environments. So you see you need different qualifications,
some do it through years of hard work and some do it by going to one of these
vendor certs. The guy with lots of experience does it a certain way because he
has done it that way for years, and he is the king of his castle, but no real
technical explanation as to why he does it that way?

I mention 35 years ago, because i have that many years in this business, and i
started with IBM as well, and have lots of international experience. And no
matter where you go, CCIEs are very valuable, you may see a manager that has
no clue and does not know the value of a CCIE, but overall they are very much
respected. As far as PHD versus CCIE, a real bad comparison. I don't believe
that CCIEs or PHDs will discuss the differences, it's like comparing apples to
oranges. I have my masters degree and i stopped because i realised learning
Fortran, COBOL, RPG is stupid, now....these days the curriculum is somewhat
inline with yesterdays/todays networks but i don't see the benefit of a PHD
unless you like to be in management. But a CCIE with a degree or Masters
degree will be more valuable, now in your case you have your CCIE as well,
which is very nice.

But I know that you were kidding or trying to piss some people off with your
coffee jokes.

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net> wrote:

Thats a nice question Narbikk. The answer is no but for one reason - PhDs are
awarded by many universities but CCIEs are only awarded by one company. Is the
question therefore do we really need so many types of CCIE or could we
consolidate them into a more generalist CCIE. Doesnt the whole concept of UC
for example mean for example that we need a more generalist sort of CCIE again
ie what CCIE discipline doesnt have a high proportion of Routing and Switching
? Couldnt we revert back to a three day CCIE where you did the core as Routing
and Switching and then the other two days in the specialist areas - security,
wireless, service provider, etc

Few years ago we had one or two tracks, these days we have more tracks. Do we
know the number of people who have their PHDs?

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net> wrote:

Hi Joe,

Agreed and why do you think there are now 26,000 CCIEs against 10,000 a few
years ago - even certification is a money making business - I estimated I
spent around $30000 on getting my CCIE - between courses , labs, exams,
bootcamps , time of work - and I didnt pass it first time. I think there is
only a 20% first time pass rate now and that means a lot of money to someone.

And by the way I dont mind people making money out of me - even on
certification as long as I get value for money.

Regards,

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph L. Brunner <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>

To: Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>; jazzsunn <jazzsunn_at_gmail.com>; ccielab
<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>

Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:34
Subject: RE: PhD vs CCIE

Ib d bet dollars to cents 10,000+ of the 17,320 R/S guys are emeritusb&

If Cisco didnb t do that the cert would look like it isnb t as valuable as
it was in 1999 and they couldnb t make as much money selling training for it

From: Bill6521 [mailto:bil6521_at_netscape.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 11:29 AM
To: Joseph L. Brunner; jazzsunn_at_gmail.com; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: PhD vs CCIE

Hi Joseph,

Read my article in CCIE Flyer. Nor did they break it down by age or sex or
nationality.

Regards,

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph L. Brunner <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>

To: jazzsunn <jazzsunn_at_gmail.com>; Bill6521 <bil6521_at_netscape.net>; ccielab

<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:22
Subject: RE: PhD vs CCIE

Notice they don't break down how many "Emeritus"

LOL

-----Original Message-----

From: jazzsunn_at_gmail.com [mailto:jazzsunn_at_gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 11:15 AM
To: Joseph L. Brunner; Bill6521; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com

Subject: Re: PhD vs CCIE

According to LTRCC-3000.pdf (updated 1/9/12, available on
ciscolivevirtual.com),
there are 26,634 currently certified CCIEs.
RS - 17,320
Sec - 3794
SP - 2885
Voice - 2291
SAN - 170
Wireless - 93
CCDE - 63
SP Ops - 11
CCAr - 7

Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joseph L. Brunner" <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>

Sender: nobody_at_groupstudy.com
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:07:02

To: Bill6521<bil6521_at_netscape.net>;
ccielab_at_groupstudy.com<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
Reply-To: "Joseph L. Brunner" <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>

Subject: RE: PhD vs CCIE

No there are far less CCIE's than that - many older lions are retiring from
the
business.

Of that number how many are current on today's technologies?

Don't sell yourself short - I had a job req out at a client in 2009 for a
CCIE
at $225,000 or so - the first 50 guys we interviewed could not explain how
DHCP
worked :) (DoRa for those of you that know)

"how many good ones"

-----Original Message-----

From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Bill6521
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 10:57 AM
To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com

Subject: Fwd: PhD vs CCIE

Hi Guys,

I think we are all missing the point here the discussion from my point of
view
is "employability" and here is my perspective. Today I understand there are
over
30,000 CCIEs thats three times what there was a few years ago and even
7,000 more then when I got my number. Gone are the days when employers would
be
lucky about getting one CCIE and we were literally regarded as "network
gods".
We are competing against "each other" and in a highly competitive world
- even as CCIEs. In that competitive world you have to give yourself an
"edge"
a something extra - what I would suggest is dont just bank on getting
employed
because you are a CCIE - and dont forget some off us are also getting
employed
because we have track records as well as being CCIEs. Most employment
agents/HR
departments do a word trawl in the first instance and the more edge you have
the
more likely you have to move to the next stage of interview etc thats what
these
certifications do for you - and dont also be a one trick pony
- consider doing a JNCIE or HP Master ASE as well as another CCIE.

Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
Received on Tue Mar 06 2012 - 14:08:17 ART

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