Re: OT: CCIE != PhD

Those two are quite different by their nature, as many have already
pointed out.

CCxx and any other professional certification for that matter would
asses your skills. And to get this one passed you either get on-the-job
experience or training or both.

A process of getting Masters/PhD would give you education.

You can build your future upon ether of them, or both at the same time
(if you have a luxury to achieve both).

We all are different but for me it was quite easy to build skills based
on a good higher education background. While studying at a Uni for
Masters/PhD we'd develop approaches, ways of thinking, logic. Those
qualities are not being focused on during professional training (skills
development). I don't claim it to be true for all professional areas,
but it is quite so for IT vs natural sciences like math, physics etc.

There is no much point to compare the two, the result could be as of
comparing apples vs pears. :-) But nonetheless many would keep
comparing. ;-)

my .02
A.

On 3/4/2012 4:06 PM, John Smith wrote:
> I think that the comparison between CCXX and degree also depends on where you
> get the degree. If you mean a degree (whether it is PhD, master or Bachelor)
> from some no-name school, then possibly getting a degree is not that
> difficult. However if you compare to degree from some good school, then (this
> concept is introduced many many times by nrf about a few years ago) being
> admitted to the university is already very difficult (while there is no
> admission requirement to get CCIE other than some working experience). I have
> never obtained CCAr (and I don't have CCDE), so I am not able to comment on
> whether CCAr is like PhD or post-doc. In summary, my take is that, CCIE
> requires me to know a lot of thing but not in depth. PhD is the other
> extreme.Getting a CCIE can result in a larger pay check, but no one really
> know what is CCIE if that person is not in the networking industry.> From:
> niedentj_at_hotmail.com
>> To: khawarb_at_gmail.com; hsm_p_at_hotmail.com
>> CC: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: OT: CCIE != PhD
>> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 13:01:42 -0800
>>
>> KB,
>>
>> I find your comments interesting. For my Bachelors and Masters 60% only
> held
>> true during the Bachelors - just to get into my program for Masters I had
> to
>> have over 70% (C) grade point average to get in (which I easily did);
>> perhaps where you attended had different requirements. If you look at the
>> CCDE and CCAr, you cannot pass either without having an understanding of
> how
>> protocols work, best practices for designs AND implementations as well as
>> business acumen. Cisco previously had the Ar at the top of their
>> certification pyramid. So, my question is, if you and John believe the Ar
> is
>> not the PhD, then what is the Ar? Post Doctoral ? I will be starting on my
>> PhD at the end of this year and I am already wondering what I will do after
>> since there is no further degree that I can earn. I don't see me going for
>> another PhD or any value in another masters. So far all I am considering
>> after the PhD is teaching and learning new languages.
>>
>> Travis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of KB
>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 7:19 AM
>> To: John Smith
>> Cc: CCIE Lab
>> Subject: Re: OT: CCIE != PhD
>>
>> I have a Bachelor's& a Master's in Computer Science. I also have multiple
>> CCIE's (R/S, Security, SP, Voice, Storage). I am also a CCDE.
>>
>> My personal opinion is that the two streams are different and really not
>> comparable.
>>
>> If you talk about the difficulty level, I found the CCIE tougher to get
> than
>> my Degrees for the mere fact that your margin for error is very less. You
>> need to pass the exam at 80%. In order to pass a class in college, your
>> passing percentage was 60%. Which was not tough to do at all.
>>
>> Having said that, the toughest exam that I have taken is definitely the
> CCDE
>> exam. Much tougher than any CCIE exam or any college exam.
>>
>> I agree with John in terms of a Phd being similar to the CCAr. That is
>> because the formats are based on a thesis and backing it up in front of a
>> panel.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 03-Mar-2012, at 8:23 PM, John Smith<hsm_p_at_hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Having a PhD from top school in US, working as a professor now and
>>> also CCIEx2, I must say that I disagreee with teh following (I don't
>>> have CCAr)> Associates (2 years) - CCxA *
>>>> Bachelors (4 years) - CCxP *
>>>> Masters (6 years) - CCIE *
>>>> PhD (8+ years) - CCAr
>>> You can say that the intellectual requirement for CCIE is similar to a
>>> second year in university. I would place CCxP and CCxA in Gr12 math or
>>> one course in first year level. However I must admit that the
>>> time/stress requirement for CCIE lab exam is more demanding than
>>> Bachelor/Masters/PhD. (the closest comparison is final exam for
>>> bachelor - there is not much time-crunching stress for graduate level)
>>> This is just my first hand experience. You are welcome to disagree if
> you
>> have also been through all these.> From:
>>> niedentj_at_hotmail.com
>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>>>> Subject: OT: CCIE != PhD
>>>> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:46:42 -0800
>>>>
>>>> I usually don't speak out about this stuff however I have noticed way
>>>> too
>>> many people comparing the CCIE to the PhD and quite frankly I find
>>> that an absurd comparison. Anyone who has worked on their Masters and
>>> PhD can attest to the rigor that is required for the PhD as well as
>>> the process involved and final goals. If you look at the CCIE it is a
> test
>> that encompasses:
>>>> - A CISCO specific technology line
>>>> - Each test set has a fixed set of possible exams that are updated
>>>> and
>>> swapped time to time to avoid cheating
>>>> - Only requires configuration and troubleshooting - again, heavy
>>>> Cisco
>>> specific focus
>>>> - Graded by a system, confirmed by a human
>>>> - 8 hours to prove that you have absorbed enough knowledge to
>>>> configure
>>> things the Cisco way
>>>>
>>>> The PhD is not this at all, in fact the PhD's main goal is for the
>>>> student
>>> to learn enough about their area of interest so they can build a
>>> thesis, go out and scientifically research it and then DEFEND it and
>>> add to the body of human knowledge. While we all spend thousands of
>>> dollars, hundreds if not thousands of hours in labs / working and
>>> hours weekly responding to GS, with the CCIE we are not creating
>>> anything new for the body of human knowledge. I don't say this
>>> lightly as I know the vendors work hard on their materials however if
>>> you look at two of them side by side you will see many of the same
>>> configurations as that's the way Cisco programmed the IOS parser to
> handle
>> the magic.
>>>> There are key milestones in the PhD process / journey including:
>>>>
>>>> - Research classes
>>>> - Academic writing classes
>>>> - Colloquia
>>>> - Comps
>>>> - Thesis Research
>>>> - Thesis Dissertation
>>>> - Thesis Defense
>>>>
>>>> Keep in mind that most universities have a 2 times and then out
>>>> policy -
>>> thus meaning if you fail your comps or defense twice, you are out. You
>>> have just spent 10's of thousands of dollars and years on your thesis
>>> and education and failed.
>>>> In comparison, Cisco allows you to take the CCIE over and over and
>>>> over and
>>> requires no original contribution to the field of
>>> networking/security/voice/SP, etc. This is just to gain revenue and
>>> ensure Cisco skilled workers in IT worldwide.
>>>> As I see it, the closest thing to a PhD Cisco has now is the CCAr.
>>>> While
>>> Cisco's path to making and expanding this program has been rather
>>> lengthy and slow, I do hope that they continue to push it. The Ar
>>> cannot be accomplished by just any testking and requires a defense. In
>>> addition it requires an initial response to questions, similar to
>>> comps, and they MUST be acceptable before moving on to the panel phase.
>>>> So here's how I see it:
>>>>
>>>> Associates (2 years) - CCxA *
>>>> Bachelors (4 years) - CCxP *
>>>> Masters (6 years) - CCIE *
>>>> PhD (8+ years) - CCAr
>>>>
>>>> Good luck in your studies!
>>>>
>>>> Travis
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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Received on Sun Mar 04 2012 - 18:16:45 ART