RE: OT: CCIE != PhD

KB,

I find your comments interesting. For my Bachelors and Masters 60% only held
true during the Bachelors - just to get into my program for Masters I had to
have over 70% (C) grade point average to get in (which I easily did);
perhaps where you attended had different requirements. If you look at the
CCDE and CCAr, you cannot pass either without having an understanding of how
protocols work, best practices for designs AND implementations as well as
business acumen. Cisco previously had the Ar at the top of their
certification pyramid. So, my question is, if you and John believe the Ar is
not the PhD, then what is the Ar? Post Doctoral ? I will be starting on my
PhD at the end of this year and I am already wondering what I will do after
since there is no further degree that I can earn. I don't see me going for
another PhD or any value in another masters. So far all I am considering
after the PhD is teaching and learning new languages.

Travis

-----Original Message-----
From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 7:19 AM
To: John Smith
Cc: CCIE Lab
Subject: Re: OT: CCIE != PhD

I have a Bachelor's & a Master's in Computer Science. I also have multiple
CCIE's (R/S, Security, SP, Voice, Storage). I am also a CCDE.

My personal opinion is that the two streams are different and really not
comparable.

If you talk about the difficulty level, I found the CCIE tougher to get than
my Degrees for the mere fact that your margin for error is very less. You
need to pass the exam at 80%. In order to pass a class in college, your
passing percentage was 60%. Which was not tough to do at all.

Having said that, the toughest exam that I have taken is definitely the CCDE
exam. Much tougher than any CCIE exam or any college exam.

I agree with John in terms of a Phd being similar to the CCAr. That is
because the formats are based on a thesis and backing it up in front of a
panel.

Sent from my iPhone

On 03-Mar-2012, at 8:23 PM, John Smith <hsm_p_at_hotmail.com> wrote:

> Having a PhD from top school in US, working as a professor now and
> also CCIEx2, I must say that I disagreee with teh following (I don't
> have CCAr) > Associates (2 years) - CCxA *
>> Bachelors (4 years) - CCxP *
>> Masters (6 years) - CCIE *
>> PhD (8+ years) - CCAr
> You can say that the intellectual requirement for CCIE is similar to a
> second year in university. I would place CCxP and CCxA in Gr12 math or
> one course in first year level. However I must admit that the
> time/stress requirement for CCIE lab exam is more demanding than
> Bachelor/Masters/PhD. (the closest comparison is final exam for
> bachelor - there is not much time-crunching stress for graduate level)
> This is just my first hand experience. You are welcome to disagree if you
have also been through all these. > From:
> niedentj_at_hotmail.com
>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>> Subject: OT: CCIE != PhD
>> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:46:42 -0800
>>
>> I usually don't speak out about this stuff however I have noticed way
>> too
> many people comparing the CCIE to the PhD and quite frankly I find
> that an absurd comparison. Anyone who has worked on their Masters and
> PhD can attest to the rigor that is required for the PhD as well as
> the process involved and final goals. If you look at the CCIE it is a test
that encompasses:
>>
>> - A CISCO specific technology line
>> - Each test set has a fixed set of possible exams that are updated
>> and
> swapped time to time to avoid cheating
>> - Only requires configuration and troubleshooting - again, heavy
>> Cisco
> specific focus
>> - Graded by a system, confirmed by a human
>> - 8 hours to prove that you have absorbed enough knowledge to
>> configure
> things the Cisco way
>>
>>
>> The PhD is not this at all, in fact the PhD's main goal is for the
>> student
> to learn enough about their area of interest so they can build a
> thesis, go out and scientifically research it and then DEFEND it and
> add to the body of human knowledge. While we all spend thousands of
> dollars, hundreds if not thousands of hours in labs / working and
> hours weekly responding to GS, with the CCIE we are not creating
> anything new for the body of human knowledge. I don't say this
> lightly as I know the vendors work hard on their materials however if
> you look at two of them side by side you will see many of the same
> configurations as that's the way Cisco programmed the IOS parser to handle
the magic.
>>
>> There are key milestones in the PhD process / journey including:
>>
>> - Research classes
>> - Academic writing classes
>> - Colloquia
>> - Comps
>> - Thesis Research
>> - Thesis Dissertation
>> - Thesis Defense
>>
>> Keep in mind that most universities have a 2 times and then out
>> policy -
> thus meaning if you fail your comps or defense twice, you are out. You
> have just spent 10's of thousands of dollars and years on your thesis
> and education and failed.
>>
>> In comparison, Cisco allows you to take the CCIE over and over and
>> over and
> requires no original contribution to the field of
> networking/security/voice/SP, etc. This is just to gain revenue and
> ensure Cisco skilled workers in IT worldwide.
>>
>> As I see it, the closest thing to a PhD Cisco has now is the CCAr.
>> While
> Cisco's path to making and expanding this program has been rather
> lengthy and slow, I do hope that they continue to push it. The Ar
> cannot be accomplished by just any testking and requires a defense. In
> addition it requires an initial response to questions, similar to
> comps, and they MUST be acceptable before moving on to the panel phase.
>>
>> So here's how I see it:
>>
>> Associates (2 years) - CCxA *
>> Bachelors (4 years) - CCxP *
>> Masters (6 years) - CCIE *
>> PhD (8+ years) - CCAr
>>
>> Good luck in your studies!
>>
>> Travis
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
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Received on Sat Mar 03 2012 - 13:01:42 ART