Re: CCIE

Hi John - my personal opinion is that if you are confident with your skill
set and there are no outstanding reasons like a family member with a health
problem you should move on. Maybe talk to the new company personnel that
interviewed you and try to get a feeling for the work environment and your
overall responsibilities, make sure you will be comfortable with the tasks,
engineers usually provide better information than managers about the
environment. I would not try to negotiate with my current employer unless
they start the process, If your current employer asks if you are open to a
counter offer then you could negotiate right there for a salary increase.
Althought, I seriously doubt they will give you a 60% increase, it's like
admitting that they've taken advantage from you all this time. Another
reason to move on is the fact that you won't be very motivated if a less
qualified team member or newcomer makes the same or more than you. Even for
individuals with high working ethics, that is counterproductive and
 certainly will no help to raise your morale.

Fabian

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 3:41 AM, Alexei Monastyrnyi <alexeim73_at_gmail.com>wrote:

> Good point with working visa. Here in Sydney folks staying on working
> visas are getting usually less than average market rates.
>
> A.
>
> On 10/8/2011 9:54 AM, Jeff Fry wrote:
> > I would add one word of caution, this is based on what you said about
> > intracompany transfer and coming to the US. If you are here under a
> > work-visa, I would look into what leaving the company means to that
> > process. Some companies might not be willing to renew the visa -
> > leaving you in a bad position when it expires; or you might have had
> > some stipulations included with your visa when your company
> > transferred you.
> >
> > With regards to the offer, do what is best for your family. If you
> > listen to your heart, you wont go wrong.
> >
> > - Fryguy
> >
> > On 10/7/2011 2:51 PM, JB Poplawski wrote:
> >> It's not an insult, this is business. You have a service the market
> >> is willing to pay X. If you clearly know this, you're laying it out
> >> there for your company to decide.
> >>
> >> Boils down to negotiating and sales.
> >>
> >> The issue by doing as you said David, is if your old company says,
> >> "That's all you want, we'll have it done next week!" Now what do you
> >> do? Stay at old, go to new, etc. You'll be better prepared if you
> >> take action first to accept the "Please don't go, etc, etc." They
> >> counter and you stay, your new company would be pissed.
> >>
> >> Honesty is the best policy, your old company won't fault you for
> >> jumping and they'll appreciate the notice. Better prepared to find
> >> someone else, etc.
> >>
> >> Either way, John let me/us know what happens. It'd be cool to here
> >> how you handle this, etc.
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >> JB
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 1:43 PM, David Bass<davidbass570_at_gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> I agree with Joe...no way a company can even give that much of an
> >>> increase if they wanted to. Most companies have limits on what size
> >>> pay raise people can get. They would likely see it as an insult.
> >>>
> >>> If it were me I would put your notice in, and then if they ask tell
> >>> them.
> >>>
> >>> My opinion though...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 7, 2011, at 1:33 PM, Joe Astorino<joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hey that's cool JB, we all have our right to an opinion and you are
> >>>> certainly no exception. I'm just speaking from my own personal
> >>>> experiences
> >>>> of the world which are of course very limited to my little world of
> >>>> perceptions and things I have seen go down over the years.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would agree with you if we were talking about a few grand or 10 -
> >>>> 15% even
> >>>> but we are talking about 60% and $50,000 a year. In my experience,
> >>>> holding
> >>>> that in front of a company gets people let go or laughed at and
> >>>> told good
> >>>> luck. Again, that is just me. I've seen it happen more than once.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:24 PM, JB
> >>>> Poplawski<jb.poplawski_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Joe - You rock dude, but I can honestly disagree with you on this
> >>>>> one.
> >>>>> Get the offer letter from your potential company and hold that in
> >>>>> your pocket. Or at least very close to the brink to that you're hired
> >>>>> if you just say yes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John -
> >>>>> Here's the conversation I could see transpiring...
> >>>>> John: "Bill (HR/MGR Guy), thanks for meeting with me today.
> >>>>> Unfortunately, I've hit a cross roads here at Company X. I've been
> >>>>> approached by another firm for a base pay of $130K. I really like
> >>>>> working here, but honestly you can see my dilemma. Is this something
> >>>>> you can look into? I love the company and it would be a shame to
> >>>>> leave, but a CCIE with 8 years experience commands a little more than
> >>>>> my current salary, wouldn't you agree?"
> >>>>> Bill: (HR/MGR Guy) "Well John, let me speak with Jane (Other
> >>>>> decision maker) and see what we can do."
> >>>>> John: "Sounds great, is it possible we can re-meet on Friday (1
> >>>>> week from now).
> >>>>> Bill: "Shouldn't be a problem."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't condone doing this all the time, but if you don't fight for
> >>>>> more $$$, nobody is going to hand it to you. This is a business,
> >>>>> they
> >>>>> can axe you at any time for no reason. Good luck trying to find a
> >>>>> CCIE (with 8 years experience) for 80K.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's not fair to just up and leave your company when it's only based
> >>>>> on money. You'd be surprised to find more companies would rather
> >>>>> bump
> >>>>> you in pay, versus frantically looking to replace you. Why? It
> >>>>> costs
> >>>>> way too much, training, recruiter fees, ramp up time, hiring a bad
> >>>>> egg, etc. If you're a valuable asset to the firm, they'll keep you
> >>>>> happy. If firms aren't paying market rate, they can expect to lose
> >>>>> people because of that. If it's a partner, they're going to run into
> >>>>> issues meeting Cisco requirements as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess to recap, I would bring this issue up to the appropriate
> >>>>> people (HR/Super/Manager) and explain the situation. Sometimes
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> need to be pushed (company wise) to really realize your serious about
> >>>>> making your $$$, providing for your family and doing what it takes to
> >>>>> get there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like I said earlier though and I'll repeat, "DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS
> >>>>> YOU'RE PREPARED TO LEAVE THAT DAY!". The dialogue above could go
> >>>>> completely the wrong direction of "Sorry to hear that, pack up your
> >>>>> things and leave". I *HIGHLY* doubt that, unless you're a CCIE that
> >>>>> hangs out on the tubez and browses thechive.com all day. :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Never hurts to talk, and be *COMPLETELY* honest. Maybe they move you
> >>>>> to 120K and everything stays the same? Maybe they move you to 140
> >>>>> just to keep you from ever looking around.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope this helps,
> >>>>> JB
> >>>>>
> >>>>> PS - If this blows up in your face, don't come knocking on my
> >>>>> door, my
> >>>>> apartment is too small to house you and your family! LOL
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Joe
> >>>>> Astorino<joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> I would stay away from the counter-offer "bribe". Your existing
> >>>>>> company
> >>>>>> will replace you as soon as they can with somebody cheaper. Counter
> >>>>> offer
> >>>>>> is generally never a good idea to take. It's unfortunate, but
> >>>>>> hey man
> >>>>> it's
> >>>>>> brutal out there. Take care of you first.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 12:00 PM, JB
> >>>>>> Poplawski<jb.poplawski_at_gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Ladies and Gentleman,
> >>>>>>> This is why you get your CCIE!!! 140K/year can do a lot of things!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> John,
> >>>>>>> Take a chance, you only live once! I would interview, get a formal
> >>>>>>> offer and take it your old company. I've been here for X amount of
> >>>>>>> years, I would love to stay, but how can you compete with this
> >>>>>>> offer.
> >>>>>>> It's worth a shot! Definitely don't play that card unless you're
> >>>>>>> prepared to take the other position. You're using the new
> >>>>>>> company's
> >>>>>>> offer, but it boils down to putting up or shutting up.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Good convo and best of luck to you!
> >>>>>>> JB
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Joe Astorino<
> >>>>> joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Is the new position in the same area? Work from home is great,
> >>>>>>>> but if
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> could stay in the same area I was in, have great medical
> >>>>>>>> benefits and
> >>>>>>>> get
> >>>>>>>> 50k more to do similar work, that is a no brainer for me. Now,
> >>>>>>>> that
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>> me -- You need to weigh your options. Is working from home
> >>>>>>>> worth $50k
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> year to you? What about work environment, hours, expectations,
> >>>>> stress,
> >>>>>>>> etc? Would the new job require you to put in way more hours
> >>>>>>>> and time,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> thus have less time for your personal goals (study, hobbies,
> >>>>>>>> family,
> >>>>>>>> etc)?
> >>>>>>>> How much is that worth to you?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Good luck!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> P.S. I am not in the DC metro area but my opinion is that you are
> >>>>> being
> >>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>> balled significantly.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 11:35 AM, John Bevan<john.bevan_at_ymail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your inputs.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To make things more clear I am currently getting 80K base + 10k
> >>>>> Bonus.
> >>>>>>>>> 70%
> >>>>>>>>> of time I work from home and have stock options, medical benefit.
> >>>>> Right
> >>>>>>>>> now
> >>>>>>>>> I am based in DC metro area. Offer what I am getting from
> >>>>>>>>> consulting
> >>>>>>>>> company
> >>>>>>>>> is around 140K + health benefit.
> >>>>>>>>> I am thinking 90k in DC metro Area for CCIE is low, that is a
> >>>>>>>>> reason
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> am
> >>>>>>>>> thinking of changing. But due to other benefits with my present
> >>>>>>>>> company, I
> >>>>>>>>> am not able to make up my mind. That's the reason wanted to get
> >>>>> inputs
> >>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>> experience of other folks how to go with it and what should I
> >>>>>>>>> look
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> long terms.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>>>> John.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Joe Astorino<joeastorino1982_at_gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> *To:* John Bevan<john.bevan_at_ymail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> *Cc:* "ccielab_at_groupstudy.com"<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 7, 2011 11:21 AM
> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: CCIE
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It's all about balance man. Money is not everything, but it is
> >>>>>>>>> important :
> >>>>>>>>> ) With that being said, you have to weigh the entire
> >>>>>>>>> package. How
> >>>>>>>>> much is
> >>>>>>>>> working for a great company worth to you? 50 - 60% of what
> >>>>>>>>> you make?
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> would advise you look at the big picture to help you make a clear
> >>>>>>>>> decision.
> >>>>>>>>> Write stuff down. I was in a job hunt not too long ago
> >>>>>>>>> myself. My
> >>>>>>>>> decision
> >>>>>>>>> on where to go was based on some of these things:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> - Base salary
> >>>>>>>>> - Bonus potential
> >>>>>>>>> - Medical / Health benefit package
> >>>>>>>>> - Location
> >>>>>>>>> - Stress Level of the job as compared to others (hours I would be
> >>>>>>>>> working,
> >>>>>>>>> how much the job challenged me, etc)
> >>>>>>>>> - Family
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> All these things factor in. Now, 50-60% pay increase is going
> >>>>>>>>> to be
> >>>>>>>>> real
> >>>>>>>>> tough for me to turn down personally. From experience, I
> >>>>>>>>> think you
> >>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>> kidding yourself if you think your current company is going to
> >>>>>>>>> eventually
> >>>>>>>>> increase your pay by 50-60%. Maybe by the time you retire : )
> >>>>>>>>> Companies
> >>>>>>>>> that hire you in at a "low" wage will keep you there for
> >>>>>>>>> eternity.
> >>>>>>>>> When I
> >>>>>>>>> went from CCNA to CCNP all the sudden the company wanted me to
> >>>>>>>>> stop
> >>>>>>>>> doing
> >>>>>>>>> cable drop runs and start configuring core and distribution layer
> >>>>>>>>> devices
> >>>>>>>>> and work on complex topology designs, but guess what? They didn't
> >>>>> want
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> pay for that. Why? They hired a CCNA for a low price. Just
> >>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> got a
> >>>>>>>>> CCNP didn't mean they were hiking my salary any more than the
> >>>>>>>>> crappy
> >>>>> 3%
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> year for living expenses. So, I moved on at the time. These are
> >>>>>>>>> things you
> >>>>>>>>> have to think about.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In summary, you need to look at the entire package and find
> >>>>>>>>> out what
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> most important for you and what is best for you and your family.
> >>>>>>>>> Additionally, I don't think any company is going to bump you that
> >>>>> much
> >>>>>>>>> in a
> >>>>>>>>> short period of time.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> HTH
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 9:56 AM, John Bevan<john.bevan_at_ymail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I am confused about job change and want to know from the
> >>>>>>>>> experience
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> other folks who might have been through similar situation. I am a
> >>>>> CCIE
> >>>>>>>>> certified engineer working at Consulting engineer with the
> >>>>>>>>> topmost(No
> >>>>>>>>> prize
> >>>>>>>>> for guessing) network company from last 5 years (having total
> >>>>>>>>> 8 years
> >>>>>>>>> experience). I came to US about a year back through intra-company
> >>>>>>>>> transfer.
> >>>>>>>>> Now my issues is that present company though is one of the best
> >>>>> company
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> work for in networking industry but they are not paying me at
> >>>>>>>>> level
> >>>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>>> experienced CCIE should be paid at(though a one of top most
> >>>>> performer).
> >>>>>>>>> Now
> >>>>>>>>> I have few opportunities with some consulting companies in US
> >>>>>>>>> who are
> >>>>>>>>> ready
> >>>>>>>>> to pay me 50-60% hike but these companies though good in
> >>>>>>>>> consulting
> >>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>> at that level my present company is.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So my dilemma is that I am not able to decide if I should go
> >>>>>>>>> for hike
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> leave my present company or instead of Salary I should remain
> >>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> reputed
> >>>>>>>>> company and wait for at-least 3-5 years more to reach this salary
> >>>>> level
> >>>>>>>>> being offered to me right now. So basically want comparison
> >>>>>>>>> between
> >>>>>>>>> salary
> >>>>>>>>> level and company reputation.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Also what should be average good salary in US for CCIE with 8
> >>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>> experience, so that I can decide that if I am right now paid
> >>>>>>>>> too low
> >>>>> ?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your inputs to help me clear my dilemma.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Joe Astorino
> >>>>>>>>> CCIE #24347
> >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://astorinonetworks.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe Astorino
> >>>>>>>> CCIE #24347
> >>>>>>>> Blog: http://astorinonetworks.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>>>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe Astorino
> >>>>>> CCIE #24347
> >>>>>> Blog: http://astorinonetworks.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Joe Astorino
> >>>> CCIE #24347
> >>>> Blog: http://astorinonetworks.com
> >>>>
> >>>> "He not busy being born is busy dying" - Dylan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html

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Received on Fri Oct 21 2011 - 07:53:16 ART