Re: OT - VSS and CCIE 4.0

Chris,

We all understand that CCIE is NOT a test on hardware, but different
platforms give us different options and features that are NOT available on a
lower end platform ( I hope you read the link that I posted).

In the old days some of the CCIEs were more respected, than, some of the
CCIEs nowadays. What do you think the reason is?

I think the reason is Knowledge of whats real. When a CCIE gets hired and
he/she does NOT have a clue, that firm will think twice about hiring CCIEs.

The same happened to the other certifications. CCIE is NOT an entry point in
any ones language. *In the old days we had 5500s and that box was expensive,
but relevant*.

When you tell me that you are a CCIE, you are telling me that you know your
Routing and Switching. A person that has never touched a 6500 (The platform
that I recommended), can not figure things out on the fly, it will take that
person a while to know how to deal with it, this is very different to the
different management applications that you are stating.

The QoS aspect of these boxes can be a nightmare for a first time user.

If Cisco comes up with an emulator for these boxes, then, this person will
not be in shock, he/she will know how to handle that request.

I agree with you that there will always be new technologies or platforms,
but they should try to make this cert as relevant as possible.

Your analogy of a Ferrari, is correct if the speed was the only difference
here, your analogy is correct if we are talking about i5 and i7 processor
on a given PC, BUT this analogy is totally wrong when you compare an access
layer switch to a core layer switch which is missing in the lab today.

I dont know about you, but all the instructors that I know, get VERY
excited when the class that they are teaching (CCIE ONLY) contains relevant
stuff. When I learn something and figure out a new behavior, it makes me
excited. Obviously we are VERY different.

Why do people get more excited when they get their CCIE versus a Network+ or
CCNA?

Because they are telling the world that they are on top of their game, this
is whats assumed by the entire world.

Once again, if you go back and read my post, you will see that I clearly
stated that, this is NOT an argument its a discussion. But you and the
other guy made it very personal and started attacking and arguing just
because I recommended a change, its NOT that Cisco is going to implement
the recommended changes tomorrow, or they are even considering what I
recommended. This is a FREE world, and we are all entitled to our own
opinion, you can NOT get personal and attack the person just because he/she
state his/her ideas. OR I like to offer FREE classes to some that can NOT
afford it. This is my business and I will do what ever that makes me feel
good.

When Cisco had 2 switches in the lab, the level of the switching part of
that exam was NOT up to par, but when they added another 2 switches, the
level of knowledge and lab was raised to a higher level. Could you imagine
if they add the 6500, how well the CCIE candidates will know the features,
QoS and etc of that box? When you say CCIE has nothing to do with the
equipment, then, lets change the switches with 2900 XLs, or 1900s. Why do
you think Cisco changed the 3550s to 3560s? I think they did that because of
the new features that are available on 3560s such as Srr queueing, IPv6 and
etc..If you knew 3550s back and forth, you will have problems implementing
QoS, IPv6 and bunch of other things that are available on 3560 that are
missing on a 3550 switches. Because you would not have a clue about them.

Cheers

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Chris Proctor <chris_at_cwproctor.net> wrote:

> I believe you're missing the point I was making. The CCIE is not a test on
> a hardware platform. Why not test management of 3750 stacks then? There's
> a ton of hardware platform specific features. All of them could show up in
> the real world. All of them have white papers, configuration guides,
etc...
> Anyone who can pass the R&S lab should be able to read and implement those
> technologies.
>
> There will ALWAYS be a new technology or platform not represented on test.
>
> To make an analogy, to get a driver's license you don't have to prove you
> can drive a Ferrari at 190 MPH. You have to prove that you can operate the
> driving controls, understand the traffic laws and perform some basic
> maneuvers.
>
> I think you made your position quite plain when you said :" *I like to see
> the "two day" lab back again*. Could you imagine..........8 hours of
> configuration on day one, and another 8 hours of TS on day two; the TS
> should NOT have anything to do with what you configured on day one.
Increase
> the price of the test to accommodate this change. Wouldn t that be
> exciting?"
>
> What exactly would make this more exciting? Who would this be more
> exciting for? Cisco didn't create the CCIE for the entertainment and
> enrichment of technical instructors.
>
> Then you said, "What is the use of a CCIE cert if it's easy as CCNA or
> MCSE? Don't you guys want to protect your investment?"
>
> So, even ignoring the hyperbole, you are plainly arguing that the test
> should be ever more difficult. Explain to me, please, how more people
> failing the exam and/or spending more money to learn and pass it "protects"
> my investment.
>
> In all honesty, people breaking NDA is a far larger threat because it
> produces incompetent CCIEs. If 100,000 people learn the material and can
> execute, they should get their numbers. I don't see that as a threat. I
> see that as the world becoming a better and more clue-ful place.
>
>
> On 3/4/2011 3:56 PM, Narbik Kocharians wrote:
>
>> John Wayne, before you take out your gun and start firing, try to
>> understand
>> what was said.
>>
>> I am sorry that you take things the way you like, the entire point here
>> was
>> missed by you. I was NOT whining, i was trying to tell Chris that us
>> vendors
>> do not gain anything out of a recommendation. Do you understand that? or
>> do
>> you like to argue for no reason.
>>
>> The salary of a good CCIE as an instructor or an engineer is almost the
>> same.
>>
>> How do you figure that half of my students attend my class for FREE? Who
>> told you that? If it's true then your calculation is all wrong. BTW, If i
>> allow few students to attend the class for FREE, it is because i like to
>> help, maybe that concept is strange to you, but helping others is NOT a
>> bad
>> thing, is it? you should try it sometimes, you MAY feel good about
>> yourself.
>> So how do i come out as the evil empire, when you said that half of my
>> students are attending the class for FREE? Which evil empire does that?
>>
>> I never changed my stance, i am still hoping that they add new tech and
>> hardware to the program.
>>
>> This is what you wrote:
>>
>> *Not all classes offer free retakes.*
>> *Narbik as a Cisco 360 instructor won't you get IOU before non-360
>> instuctors?*
>> *That is by definition self-serving. That makes you appear very poorly to
>> those reading.*
>>
>> All of our classes have FREE retakes, my students will tell ou that
>> (hahahaha the ones that pay). If you don't like that.....then, *PAY*.
>> Well.....no one that i know has IOU, the recommendation of IOU is for the
>> students and NOT instructors.
>>
>> Chris,
>> I did not recommend VSS, go back and read the post. I recommended a change
>> in the hardware like 6500s, BTW, read this:
>>
>>
>>
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/switches/lan/catalyst6500/ios/12.2SXF/native/
configuration/guide/qos.html
>>
>> Does this sound a very small change to you? Is this the same as what we
>> have
>> in 3560s? I just picked on the first hit i got when i did a basic search.
>> Come on M8, you are a technical instructor, you should be the last person
>> to
>> say that.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 12:01 PM, John Wayne<john.wayne.ccie_at_gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> Narbik
>>>
>>> You are back peddling my friend. It is really depressing. You are arguing
>>> some of your own points here.
>>>
>>> Did you say this:
>>>
>>> Can you imagine how good we are all going to get? That is where i am
>>> going
>>> with this. What
>>> is the use of a CCIE cert if it's easy as CCNA or MCSE? Don't you guys
>>> want
>>> to protect your investment?
>>>
>>> You made the statement. Now you are wrong.
>>>
>>> Narbik also said this:
>>>
>>> 2. *Remove some of the 3560 switches, and add 6500s*, this can be either
>>> 2
>>> of each, or any combination. This can somewhat emulate the real world.
>>> There
>>> are many differences between the two boxes. No matter where you go these
>>> days, you will see these boxes. Could you imagine how well you would know
>>> what s used out there? Your confidence level will be different.
>>>
>>> Then Narbik said this:
>>>
>>> So if they add the 6500 switches (which I recommended), for the
>>> instructors,
>>> it means nothing but More Work. WHY? Because now we have to purchase or
>>> rent
>>> few of them and take them apart and reassemble it again, test almost
>>> every
>>> feature offered by that box and different IOS versions, and then, read
>>> the
>>> blueprint and try to understand what kind of implementation are they
>>> thinking about. At this point of the game, the surest bet is to go all
>>> the
>>> way and test and prepare a lecture just in case ..this means lots of
>>> hours.
>>> Not to mention the fact that you have to write labs, some features works
>>> well with all IOSes and some don t .find out which, so you can make it
>>> part
>>> of your workbook. UPDATE YOUR RACKs, which costs a lot. A 3560 today
>>> sells
>>> for 700 900 dollars, a 6500 sells for 10 times that, and remember that
>>> you
>>> don t have a single rack, you probably have 10 24 racks to upgrade.
>>>
>>>
>>> Narbik do you read the what you write.
>>>
>>>
>>> You are whining about the having to learn the material you have to teach
>>> to
>>> do your job in your chosen profession?
>>>
>>> Are you for real?
>>>
>>> What is the average CCIE salary? What is the average CCIE instructor
>>> salary?
>>>
>>> You complain about the price of a CCIE class going down in price when you
>>> were the person who lowered a CCIE class to $2000.00 or $1500.00 and half
>>> of
>>> your students go for free per class.
>>>
>>> Bravo to Chris for pointing out the facts:
>>>
>>> The CCIE tracks should be about knowledge, effort and aptitude and
>>> nothing
>>> more.
>>>
>>> Sorry Narbik comes out looking like the evil empire and cannot maintain
>>> his
>>> stance.
>>>
>>> Narbik said:
>>>
>>> From an instructor s perspective ..satisfaction is all you get, if you
>>> like
>>> teaching, it makes it all exciting, you have better and more exciting
>>> stories to tell, I know it s unbelievable for some of us here, and some
>>> will
>>> NEVER understand.
>>>
>>> Narbik should have said:
>>>
>>> If an instructor teaches a class at $4000.00 per seat and 5 seats are
>>> filled
>>> that is $20,000.00 gross per class.
>>>
>>> Anyone else want to take a paycut and become an instructor? There are 52
>>> weeks in a year.
>>>
>>> Shameless plug by Narbik:
>>>
>>> The retake of the classes are FREE anyways, so how are vendors gaining by
>>> an
>>> honest to God recommendation?
>>> Not all classes offer free retakes.
>>>
>>> Narbik as a Cisco 360 instructor won't you get IOU before non-360
>>> instuctors?
>>>
>>> That is by definition self-serving. That makes you appear very poorly to
>>> those reading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Narbik Kocharians<narbikk_at_gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I totally disagree about your following statement:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Sometimes, I get the feeling that some here would rather that the lab
>>> was
>>>
>>> unpassable unless you paid for 3rd party training. Lobbying Cisco to
>>> keep
>>>
>>> raising the bar to keep butts in training seats is disingenuous.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please have in mind that this is a discussion and NOT an argument.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ten years ago an instructors had a lot of materials to cover. NOW it s
>>> even
>>> worst, I would say as an instructor it s 5 times more work. Man on
>>> Thursdays
>>> we start at 9 AM and leave around 3:00 AM and the rest of the week we
>>> start
>>> at 9 AM and we leave around 10 or 11 PM except on Fridays. So you can
>>> just
>>> imagine what will happen if Cisco adds more stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When Cisco makes a new change, instructors go through an unbelievable
>>> amount
>>> of hard work, testing and reading and checking some of the different
>>> deployments of that feature and/or product in a real environment before
>>> we
>>> get up there and deliver.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So if they add the 6500 switches (which I recommended), for the
>>> instructors,
>>> it means nothing but More Work. WHY? Because now we have to purchase or
>>> rent
>>> few of them and take them apart and reassemble it again, test almost
>>> every
>>> feature offered by that box and different IOS versions, and then, read
>>> the
>>> blueprint and try to understand what kind of implementation are they
>>> thinking about. At this point of the game, the surest bet is to go all
>>> the
>>> way and test and prepare a lecture just in case ..this means lots of
>>> hours.
>>> Not to mention the fact that you have to write labs, some features works
>>> well with all IOSes and some don t .find out which, so you can make it
>>> part
>>> of your workbook. UPDATE YOUR RACKs, which costs a lot. A 3560 today
>>> sells
>>> for 700 900 dollars, a 6500 sells for 10 times that, and remember that
>>> you
>>> don t have a single rack, you probably have 10 24 racks to upgrade.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *BTW, the CCIE instructors are not making more* *than before*. Few years
>>> ago, the CCNA and CCNP classes were sold for $3000.00 - $4000.00 and CCIE
>>> Boot Camps were $4000.00- $4900.00. Now, the registration fees have come
>>> down tremendously while the costs have gone up greatly. The added cost of
>>> the hardware and effort has put many vendors out of business. *So when
>>> Cisco adds a new item to the blueprint,* *I DO NOT see a reward as a
>>> vendor.
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So ..*from an instructors perspective*, it s like a boxing match, you are
>>> as
>>> good as your last fight. .when you start your Boot Camp, you start
>>> with
>>> a
>>> full tank of petrol, and on Friday after the class is over, if you have
>>> done
>>> your job properly, you would NOT have any petrol left in your tank.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So why am I telling you all this?
>>>
>>> So you would see that as an instructor or a vendor, WE have nothing to
>>> gain
>>> but bunch of added headaches. *We don t make more or less when Cisco adds
>>> an
>>> item to the blueprint*, most of the people get on the forums like GS and
>>> ask
>>> lots of questions and learn, and who answers most of the questions? The
>>> instructors
>>>
>>> The retake of the classes are FREE anyways, so how are vendors gaining by
>>> an
>>> honest to God recommendation?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So why recommend more hardware and technology?
>>>
>>> So we can produce knowledgeable CCIE s that can go out in the real world
>>> and
>>> be able to do their job at a CCIE level. I know some brand new CCIEs that
>>> have not even seen or know anything about 6500s (Just an example).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From an instructor s perspective ..satisfaction is all you get, if you
>>> like
>>> teaching, it makes it all exciting, you have better and more exciting
>>> stories to tell, I know it s unbelievable for some of us here, and some
>>> will
>>> NEVER understand.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some say what s the big deal with 6500s? When Cisco replaced 3550s with
>>> 3560s, we had to go through an unbelievable amount of testing and prep
>>> work;
>>> can you imagine the differences between a 3560 and a 6500? The QoS, and
>>> other features that can get implemented. It can get very nasty very soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *So I don t know how that benefits an instructor? *
>>>
>>> Your philosophy maybe applies for lower level certifications, but NOT
>>> CCIE
>>> boot camps. Nowadays the vendors don t charge more or get more students
>>> just
>>> because Cisco added a new topic. So I totally disagree with most of the
>>> points you identified. Your view was not for the good of cert, I took it
>>> differently.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BTW, I am cool with instructors taking the test every 12 months, Oh .why
>>> NOT
>>> make it every quarter? ..Just kidding.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Chris Proctor<chris_at_cwproctor.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> At the risk of offending someone, I'm going to call them as I see them.
>>>>
>>>> Lab difficulty: The difficulty level of the exam should be similar to
>>>> previous incarnations of the exam. It is a very self-serving position
>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>> the gates should be shut when you got off the Mayflower. Many would
>>>>
>>> argue
>>>
>>>> that the exam is broader, deeper and more difficult than previous
>>>> incarnations without simply adding technologies purely because they are
>>>>
>>> hard
>>>
>>>> to get access to.
>>>> Instructors: Personally, if you're going to be certified to teach for
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> CCIE, I do think you should be re-lab testing every 12-24 months.
>>>> Paper delivery: Agreed. The test should be given to the candidate in
>>>> whatever format they are most comfortable with. And they should also be
>>>> allowed to write on them. Shredders are cheap.
>>>> Lab Scope/Features: I don't view the lab as a test of knowledge of
>>>> Cisco
>>>> technologies. It is a test of your ability to learn and apply
>>>>
>>> technologies.
>>>
>>>> VSS is just another feature in another document. If I can understand
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> configuration of MQC/MPF, how the heck difficult is VSS really?
>>>>
>>>> I agreed completely with the addition of the troubleshooting section for
>>>> both the protection of test integrity and validation of real world
>>>>
>>> skills.
>>>
>>>> Sometimes, I get the feeling that some here would rather that the lab
>>>> was
>>>> unpassable unless you paid for 3rd party training. Lobbying Cisco to
>>>>
>>> keep
>>>
>>>> raising the bar to keep butts in training seats is disingenuous.
>>>>
>>>> The CCIE tracks should be about knowledge, effort and aptitude and
>>>>
>>> nothing
>>>
>>>> more.
>>>>
>>>> Feel free to disagree.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/3/2011 12:58 AM, Narbik Kocharians wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Piotr,
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you imagine if Cisco gives students something like IOU that can
>>>>> emulate the 6500s, IOS XR and etc.....I would LOVE to write some
>>>>> serious
>>>>> labs on few 6500s, and i am sure that the other vendors will do the
>>>>>
>>>> same;
>>>
>>>> that will make every CCIE more knowledgable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you remember when we ONLY had two switches? Look at the switching
>>>>>
>>>> labs
>>>
>>>> now, we have 4 of them, look at the quality of the switching labs. How
>>>>> could
>>>>> you compare them to the time when we ONLY had two of them. Can you
>>>>>
>>>> imagine
>>>
>>>> how good we are all going to get? That is where i am going with this.
>>>>> What
>>>>> is the use of a CCIE cert if it's easy as CCNA or MCSE? Don't you guys
>>>>> want
>>>>> to protect your investment?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Piotr Malarski
>>>>> <piotr.malarski.99_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A CCNP test should have 4 3560s. ?
>>>>>
>>>>>> So you basically propose to rename current CCIE to CCNP and making new
>>>>>> CCIE as popular as Architect cert. I have no problem with that :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 4:23 AM, Narbik Kocharians<narbikk_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do agree with Shahid, but if it was up to me, the following is what
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>
>>>> would recommend:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. *The written exam should match the R&S blueprint*; it should be
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> theory part of the lab. I believe that this will keep every one
>>>>>>> honest
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> knowledgeable; because a CCIE candidate will know that this section is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> most important aspect of this cert; besides the fact that they have to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on referring back to that information when they have difficulty
>>>>>>> understanding a given configuration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. *Remove some of the 3560 switches, and add 6500s*, this can be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> either
>>>
>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>> of each, or any combination. This can somewhat emulate the real world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are many differences between the two boxes. No matter where you go
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> these
>>>
>>>> days, you will see these boxes. Could you imagine how well you would
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> what s used out there? Your confidence level will be different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A CCNP test should have 4 3560s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. *Remove the written test for re-certification*, and instead add a
>>>>>>> mandatory lab every 5 years, this will keep us all at our BEST. Maybe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>
>>>>>> three attempts before revoking the CCIE number.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. *Go back to the days that the topology and the questions were
>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on paper*. I do not buy the fact that this saves trees and etc etc,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. *Give CCIEs something like a License that has the candidates
>>>>>>> picture*,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>
>>>>>> see a lot of people faking a lot of people, believe it or not in few
>>>>>>> occasions i was teaching two different classes in two different parts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> world all at the same time, and one of us was horrible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. *I like to see the "two day" lab back again*. Could you
>>>>>>> imagine..........8 hours of configuration on day one, and another 8
>>>>>>> hours
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TS on day two; the TS should NOT have anything to do with what you
>>>>>>> configured on day one. Increase the price of the test to accommodate
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> change. Wouldn t that be exciting?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe i am going crazy, i have been writing labs all day........i am
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to sleep.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Shahid Ansari<shahid1357_at_gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Received on Fri Mar 04 2011 - 14:50:26 ART