John Wayne, before you take out your gun and start firing, try to understand
what was said.
I am sorry that you take things the way you like, the entire point here was
missed by you. I was NOT whining, i was trying to tell Chris that us vendors
do not gain anything out of a recommendation. Do you understand that? or do
you like to argue for no reason.
The salary of a good CCIE as an instructor or an engineer is almost the
same.
How do you figure that half of my students attend my class for FREE? Who
told you that? If it's true then your calculation is all wrong. BTW, If i
allow few students to attend the class for FREE, it is because i like to
help, maybe that concept is strange to you, but helping others is NOT a bad
thing, is it? you should try it sometimes, you MAY feel good about yourself.
So how do i come out as the evil empire, when you said that half of my
students are attending the class for FREE? Which evil empire does that?
I never changed my stance, i am still hoping that they add new tech and
hardware to the program.
This is what you wrote:
*Not all classes offer free retakes.*
*Narbik as a Cisco 360 instructor won't you get IOU before non-360
instuctors?*
*That is by definition self-serving. That makes you appear very poorly to
those reading.*
All of our classes have FREE retakes, my students will tell ou that
(hahahaha the ones that pay). If you don't like that.....then, *PAY*.
Well.....no one that i know has IOU, the recommendation of IOU is for the
students and NOT instructors.
Chris,
I did not recommend VSS, go back and read the post. I recommended a change
in the hardware like 6500s, BTW, read this:
Does this sound a very small change to you? Is this the same as what we have
in 3560s? I just picked on the first hit i got when i did a basic search.
Come on M8, you are a technical instructor, you should be the last person to
say that.
On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 12:01 PM, John Wayne <john.wayne.ccie_at_gmail.com>wrote:
> Narbik
>
> You are back peddling my friend. It is really depressing. You are arguing
> some of your own points here.
>
> Did you say this:
>
> Can you imagine how good we are all going to get? That is where i am
> going
> with this. What
> is the use of a CCIE cert if it's easy as CCNA or MCSE? Don't you guys want
> to protect your investment?
>
> You made the statement. Now you are wrong.
>
> Narbik also said this:
>
> 2. *Remove some of the 3560 switches, and add 6500s*, this can be either 2
> of each, or any combination. This can somewhat emulate the real world.
> There
> are many differences between the two boxes. No matter where you go these
> days, you will see these boxes. Could you imagine how well you would know
> what s used out there? Your confidence level will be different.
>
> Then Narbik said this:
>
> So if they add the 6500 switches (which I recommended), for the
> instructors,
> it means nothing but More Work. WHY? Because now we have to purchase or
> rent
> few of them and take them apart and reassemble it again, test almost every
> feature offered by that box and different IOS versions, and then, read the
> blueprint and try to understand what kind of implementation are they
> thinking about. At this point of the game, the surest bet is to go all the
> way and test and prepare a lecture just in case ..this means lots of hours.
> Not to mention the fact that you have to write labs, some features works
> well with all IOSes and some don t .find out which, so you can make it part
> of your workbook. UPDATE YOUR RACKs, which costs a lot. A 3560 today sells
> for 700 900 dollars, a 6500 sells for 10 times that, and remember that
> you
> don t have a single rack, you probably have 10 24 racks to upgrade.
>
>
> Narbik do you read the what you write.
>
>
> You are whining about the having to learn the material you have to teach to
> do your job in your chosen profession?
>
> Are you for real?
>
> What is the average CCIE salary? What is the average CCIE instructor
> salary?
>
> You complain about the price of a CCIE class going down in price when you
> were the person who lowered a CCIE class to $2000.00 or $1500.00 and half
> of
> your students go for free per class.
>
> Bravo to Chris for pointing out the facts:
>
> The CCIE tracks should be about knowledge, effort and aptitude and nothing
> more.
>
> Sorry Narbik comes out looking like the evil empire and cannot maintain his
> stance.
>
> Narbik said:
>
> From an instructor s perspective ..satisfaction is all you get, if you like
> teaching, it makes it all exciting, you have better and more exciting
> stories to tell, I know it s unbelievable for some of us here, and some
> will
> NEVER understand.
>
> Narbik should have said:
>
> If an instructor teaches a class at $4000.00 per seat and 5 seats are
> filled
> that is $20,000.00 gross per class.
>
> Anyone else want to take a paycut and become an instructor? There are 52
> weeks in a year.
>
> Shameless plug by Narbik:
>
> The retake of the classes are FREE anyways, so how are vendors gaining by
> an
> honest to God recommendation?
> Not all classes offer free retakes.
>
> Narbik as a Cisco 360 instructor won't you get IOU before non-360
> instuctors?
>
> That is by definition self-serving. That makes you appear very poorly to
> those reading.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I totally disagree about your following statement:
>
>
>
> *Sometimes, I get the feeling that some here would rather that the lab was
>
> unpassable unless you paid for 3rd party training. Lobbying Cisco to keep
>
> raising the bar to keep butts in training seats is disingenuous.*
>
>
>
> Please have in mind that this is a discussion and NOT an argument.
>
>
>
> Ten years ago an instructors had a lot of materials to cover. NOW it s
> even
> worst, I would say as an instructor it s 5 times more work. Man on
> Thursdays
> we start at 9 AM and leave around 3:00 AM and the rest of the week we start
> at 9 AM and we leave around 10 or 11 PM except on Fridays. So you can just
> imagine what will happen if Cisco adds more stuff.
>
>
>
> When Cisco makes a new change, instructors go through an unbelievable
> amount
> of hard work, testing and reading and checking some of the different
> deployments of that feature and/or product in a real environment before we
> get up there and deliver.
>
>
>
> So if they add the 6500 switches (which I recommended), for the
> instructors,
> it means nothing but More Work. WHY? Because now we have to purchase or
> rent
> few of them and take them apart and reassemble it again, test almost every
> feature offered by that box and different IOS versions, and then, read the
> blueprint and try to understand what kind of implementation are they
> thinking about. At this point of the game, the surest bet is to go all the
> way and test and prepare a lecture just in case ..this means lots of hours.
> Not to mention the fact that you have to write labs, some features works
> well with all IOSes and some don t .find out which, so you can make it part
> of your workbook. UPDATE YOUR RACKs, which costs a lot. A 3560 today sells
> for 700 900 dollars, a 6500 sells for 10 times that, and remember that
> you
> don t have a single rack, you probably have 10 24 racks to upgrade.
>
>
>
> *BTW, the CCIE instructors are not making more* *than before*. Few years
> ago, the CCNA and CCNP classes were sold for $3000.00 - $4000.00 and CCIE
> Boot Camps were $4000.00- $4900.00. Now, the registration fees have come
> down tremendously while the costs have gone up greatly. The added cost of
> the hardware and effort has put many vendors out of business. *So when
> Cisco adds a new item to the blueprint,* *I DO NOT see a reward as a
> vendor.
> *
>
>
>
> So ..*from an instructors perspective*, it s like a boxing match, you are
> as
> good as your last fight. .when you start your Boot Camp, you start with
> a
> full tank of petrol, and on Friday after the class is over, if you have
> done
> your job properly, you would NOT have any petrol left in your tank.
>
>
>
>
>
> So why am I telling you all this?
>
> So you would see that as an instructor or a vendor, WE have nothing to gain
> but bunch of added headaches. *We don t make more or less when Cisco adds
> an
> item to the blueprint*, most of the people get on the forums like GS and
> ask
> lots of questions and learn, and who answers most of the questions? The
> instructors
>
> The retake of the classes are FREE anyways, so how are vendors gaining by
> an
> honest to God recommendation?
>
>
>
> So why recommend more hardware and technology?
>
> So we can produce knowledgeable CCIE s that can go out in the real world
> and
> be able to do their job at a CCIE level. I know some brand new CCIEs that
> have not even seen or know anything about 6500s (Just an example).
>
>
>
> From an instructor s perspective ..satisfaction is all you get, if you like
> teaching, it makes it all exciting, you have better and more exciting
> stories to tell, I know it s unbelievable for some of us here, and some
> will
> NEVER understand.
>
>
>
> Some say what s the big deal with 6500s? When Cisco replaced 3550s with
> 3560s, we had to go through an unbelievable amount of testing and prep
> work;
> can you imagine the differences between a 3560 and a 6500? The QoS, and
> other features that can get implemented. It can get very nasty very soon.
>
>
>
> *So I don t know how that benefits an instructor? *
>
> Your philosophy maybe applies for lower level certifications, but NOT CCIE
> boot camps. Nowadays the vendors don t charge more or get more students
> just
> because Cisco added a new topic. So I totally disagree with most of the
> points you identified. Your view was not for the good of cert, I took it
> differently.
>
>
>
> BTW, I am cool with instructors taking the test every 12 months, Oh .why
> NOT
> make it every quarter? ..Just kidding.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Chris Proctor <chris_at_cwproctor.net> wrote:
>
> > At the risk of offending someone, I'm going to call them as I see them.
> >
> > Lab difficulty: The difficulty level of the exam should be similar to
> > previous incarnations of the exam. It is a very self-serving position
> that
> > the gates should be shut when you got off the Mayflower. Many would
> argue
> > that the exam is broader, deeper and more difficult than previous
> > incarnations without simply adding technologies purely because they are
> hard
> > to get access to.
> > Instructors: Personally, if you're going to be certified to teach for
> the
> > CCIE, I do think you should be re-lab testing every 12-24 months.
> > Paper delivery: Agreed. The test should be given to the candidate in
> > whatever format they are most comfortable with. And they should also be
> > allowed to write on them. Shredders are cheap.
> > Lab Scope/Features: I don't view the lab as a test of knowledge of Cisco
> > technologies. It is a test of your ability to learn and apply
> technologies.
> > VSS is just another feature in another document. If I can understand
> the
> > configuration of MQC/MPF, how the heck difficult is VSS really?
> >
> > I agreed completely with the addition of the troubleshooting section for
> > both the protection of test integrity and validation of real world
> skills.
> > Sometimes, I get the feeling that some here would rather that the lab was
> > unpassable unless you paid for 3rd party training. Lobbying Cisco to
> keep
> > raising the bar to keep butts in training seats is disingenuous.
> >
> > The CCIE tracks should be about knowledge, effort and aptitude and
> nothing
> > more.
> >
> > Feel free to disagree.
> >
> > On 3/3/2011 12:58 AM, Narbik Kocharians wrote:
> >
> >> Piotr,
> >>
> >> Could you imagine if Cisco gives students something like IOU that can
> >> emulate the 6500s, IOS XR and etc.....I would LOVE to write some serious
> >> labs on few 6500s, and i am sure that the other vendors will do the
> same;
> >> that will make every CCIE more knowledgable.
> >>
> >> Do you remember when we ONLY had two switches? Look at the switching
> labs
> >> now, we have 4 of them, look at the quality of the switching labs. How
> >> could
> >> you compare them to the time when we ONLY had two of them. Can you
> imagine
> >> how good we are all going to get? That is where i am going with this.
> >> What
> >> is the use of a CCIE cert if it's easy as CCNA or MCSE? Don't you guys
> >> want
> >> to protect your investment?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Piotr Malarski
> >> <piotr.malarski.99_at_gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >> A CCNP test should have 4 3560s. ?
> >>>
> >>> So you basically propose to rename current CCIE to CCNP and making new
> >>> CCIE as popular as Architect cert. I have no problem with that :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 4:23 AM, Narbik Kocharians<narbikk_at_gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I do agree with Shahid, but if it was up to me, the following is what
> I
> >>>> would recommend:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. *The written exam should match the R&S blueprint*; it should be the
> >>>> theory part of the lab. I believe that this will keep every one honest
> >>>>
> >>> and
> >>>
> >>>> knowledgeable; because a CCIE candidate will know that this section is
> >>>>
> >>> the
> >>>
> >>>> most important aspect of this cert; besides the fact that they have to
> >>>>
> >>> keep
> >>>
> >>>> on referring back to that information when they have difficulty
> >>>> understanding a given configuration.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. *Remove some of the 3560 switches, and add 6500s*, this can be
> either
> >>>>
> >>> 2
> >>>
> >>>> of each, or any combination. This can somewhat emulate the real world.
> >>>>
> >>> There
> >>>
> >>>> are many differences between the two boxes. No matter where you go
> these
> >>>> days, you will see these boxes. Could you imagine how well you would
> >>>> know
> >>>> what s used out there? Your confidence level will be different.
> >>>>
> >>>> A CCNP test should have 4 3560s.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. *Remove the written test for re-certification*, and instead add a
> >>>> mandatory lab every 5 years, this will keep us all at our BEST. Maybe
> >>>>
> >>> allow
> >>>
> >>>> three attempts before revoking the CCIE number.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4. *Go back to the days that the topology and the questions were given
> >>>> to
> >>>>
> >>> us
> >>>
> >>>> on paper*. I do not buy the fact that this saves trees and etc etc,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 5. *Give CCIEs something like a License that has the candidates
> >>>> picture*,
> >>>>
> >>> i
> >>>
> >>>> see a lot of people faking a lot of people, believe it or not in few
> >>>> occasions i was teaching two different classes in two different parts
> of
> >>>>
> >>> the
> >>>
> >>>> world all at the same time, and one of us was horrible.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 6. *I like to see the "two day" lab back again*. Could you
> >>>> imagine..........8 hours of configuration on day one, and another 8
> >>>> hours
> >>>>
> >>> of
> >>>
> >>>> TS on day two; the TS should NOT have anything to do with what you
> >>>> configured on day one. Increase the price of the test to accommodate
> >>>> this
> >>>> change. Wouldn t that be exciting?
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe i am going crazy, i have been writing labs all day........i am
> >>>>
> >>> going
> >>>
> >>>> to sleep.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Shahid Ansari<shahid1357_at_gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Chris Proctor
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Narbik Kocharians
> *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
> www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/> <
> http://www.micronicstraining.com/> <
> http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
> Sr. Technical Instructor
> *Ask about our FREE Lab Voucher with our Boot Camps*
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training & Remote Racks available
>
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-- *Narbik Kocharians *CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security) www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/> Sr. Technical Instructor *Ask about our FREE Lab Voucher with our Boot Camps* YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits! Training & Remote Racks available Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.netReceived on Fri Mar 04 2011 - 12:56:01 ART
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