Re: OT - VSS and CCIE 4.0

Chris,

I totally disagree about your following statement:

*Sometimes, I get the feeling that some here would rather that the lab was
unpassable unless you paid for 3rd party training. Lobbying Cisco to keep
raising the bar to keep butts in training seats is disingenuous.*

Please have in mind that this is a discussion and NOT an argument.

Ten years ago an instructors had a lot of materials to cover. NOWits even
worst, I would say as an instructor its 5 times more work. Man on Thursdays
we start at 9 AM and leave around 3:00 AM and the rest of the week we start
at 9 AM and we leave around 10 or 11 PM except on Fridays. So you can just
imagine what will happen if Cisco adds more stuff.

When Cisco makes a new change, instructors go through an unbelievable amount
of hard work, testing and reading and checking some of the different
deployments of that feature and/or product in a real environment before we
get up there and deliver.

So if they add the 6500 switches (which I recommended), for the instructors,
it means nothing but More Work. WHY? Because now we have to purchase or rent
few of them and take them apart and reassemble it again, test almost every
feature offered by that box and different IOS versions, and then, read the
blueprint and try to understand what kind of implementation are they
thinking about. At this point of the game, the surest bet is to go all the
way and test and prepare a lecture just in case..this means lots of hours.
Not to mention the fact that you have to write labs, some features works
well with all IOSes and some dont.find out which, so you can make it part
of your workbook. UPDATE YOUR RACKs, which costs a lot. A 3560 today sells
for 700  900 dollars, a 6500 sells for 10 times that, and remember that you
dont have a single rack, you probably have 10  24 racks to upgrade.

*BTW, the CCIE instructors are not making more* *than before*. Few years
ago, the CCNA and CCNP classes were sold for $3000.00 - $4000.00 and CCIE
Boot Camps were $4000.00- $4900.00. Now, the registration fees have come
down tremendously while the costs have gone up greatly. The added cost of
the hardware and effort has put many vendors out of business. *So when
Cisco adds a new item to the blueprint,* *I DO NOT see a reward as a vendor.
*

So..*from an instructors perspective*, its like a boxing match, you are as
good as your last fight.  .when you start your Boot Camp, you start with a
full tank of petrol, and on Friday after the class is over, if you have done
your job properly, you would NOT have any petrol left in your tank.

So why am I telling you all this?

So you would see that as an instructor or a vendor, WE have nothing to gain
but bunch of added headaches. *We dont make more or less when Cisco adds an
item to the blueprint*, most of the people get on the forums like GS and ask
lots of questions and learn, and who answers most of the questions? The
instructors

The retake of the classes are FREE anyways, so how are vendors gaining by an
honest to God recommendation?

So why recommend more hardware and technology?

So we can produce knowledgeable CCIEs that can go out in the real world and
be able to do their job at a CCIE level. I know some brand new CCIEs that
have not even seen or know anything about 6500s (Just an example).

From an instructors perspective..satisfaction is all you get, if you like
teaching, it makes it all exciting, you have better and more exciting
stories to tell, I know its unbelievable for some of us here, and some will
NEVER understand.

Some say whats the big deal with 6500s? When Cisco replaced 3550s with
3560s, we had to go through an unbelievable amount of testing and prep work;
can you imagine the differences between a 3560 and a 6500? The QoS, and
other features that can get implemented. It can get very nasty very soon.

*So I dont know how that benefits an instructor? *

Your philosophy maybe applies for lower level certifications, but NOT CCIE
boot camps. Nowadays the vendors dont charge more or get more students just
because Cisco added a new topic. So I totally disagree with most of the
points you identified. Your view was not for the good of cert, I took it
differently.

BTW, I am cool with instructors taking the test every 12 months, Oh.why NOT
make it every quarter? ..Just kidding.

Regards,

On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Chris Proctor <chris_at_cwproctor.net> wrote:

> At the risk of offending someone, I'm going to call them as I see them.
>
> Lab difficulty: The difficulty level of the exam should be similar to
> previous incarnations of the exam. It is a very self-serving position that
> the gates should be shut when you got off the Mayflower. Many would argue
> that the exam is broader, deeper and more difficult than previous
> incarnations without simply adding technologies purely because they are
hard
> to get access to.
> Instructors: Personally, if you're going to be certified to teach for the
> CCIE, I do think you should be re-lab testing every 12-24 months.
> Paper delivery: Agreed. The test should be given to the candidate in
> whatever format they are most comfortable with. And they should also be
> allowed to write on them. Shredders are cheap.
> Lab Scope/Features: I don't view the lab as a test of knowledge of Cisco
> technologies. It is a test of your ability to learn and apply
technologies.
> VSS is just another feature in another document. If I can understand the
> configuration of MQC/MPF, how the heck difficult is VSS really?
>
> I agreed completely with the addition of the troubleshooting section for
> both the protection of test integrity and validation of real world skills.
> Sometimes, I get the feeling that some here would rather that the lab was
> unpassable unless you paid for 3rd party training. Lobbying Cisco to keep
> raising the bar to keep butts in training seats is disingenuous.
>
> The CCIE tracks should be about knowledge, effort and aptitude and nothing
> more.
>
> Feel free to disagree.
>
> On 3/3/2011 12:58 AM, Narbik Kocharians wrote:
>
>> Piotr,
>>
>> Could you imagine if Cisco gives students something like IOU that can
>> emulate the 6500s, IOS XR and etc.....I would LOVE to write some serious
>> labs on few 6500s, and i am sure that the other vendors will do the same;
>> that will make every CCIE more knowledgable.
>>
>> Do you remember when we ONLY had two switches? Look at the switching labs
>> now, we have 4 of them, look at the quality of the switching labs. How
>> could
>> you compare them to the time when we ONLY had two of them. Can you imagine
>> how good we are all going to get? That is where i am going with this.
>> What
>> is the use of a CCIE cert if it's easy as CCNA or MCSE? Don't you guys
>> want
>> to protect your investment?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Piotr Malarski
>> <piotr.malarski.99_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> A CCNP test should have 4 3560s. ?
>>>
>>> So you basically propose to rename current CCIE to CCNP and making new
>>> CCIE as popular as Architect cert. I have no problem with that :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 4:23 AM, Narbik Kocharians<narbikk_at_gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do agree with Shahid, but if it was up to me, the following is what I
>>>> would recommend:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. *The written exam should match the R&S blueprint*; it should be the
>>>> theory part of the lab. I believe that this will keep every one honest
>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>> knowledgeable; because a CCIE candidate will know that this section is
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> most important aspect of this cert; besides the fact that they have to
>>>>
>>> keep
>>>
>>>> on referring back to that information when they have difficulty
>>>> understanding a given configuration.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2. *Remove some of the 3560 switches, and add 6500s*, this can be either
>>>>
>>> 2
>>>
>>>> of each, or any combination. This can somewhat emulate the real world.
>>>>
>>> There
>>>
>>>> are many differences between the two boxes. No matter where you go these
>>>> days, you will see these boxes. Could you imagine how well you would
>>>> know
>>>> what s used out there? Your confidence level will be different.
>>>>
>>>> A CCNP test should have 4 3560s.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3. *Remove the written test for re-certification*, and instead add a
>>>> mandatory lab every 5 years, this will keep us all at our BEST. Maybe
>>>>
>>> allow
>>>
>>>> three attempts before revoking the CCIE number.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4. *Go back to the days that the topology and the questions were given
>>>> to
>>>>
>>> us
>>>
>>>> on paper*. I do not buy the fact that this saves trees and etc etc,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5. *Give CCIEs something like a License that has the candidates
>>>> picture*,
>>>>
>>> i
>>>
>>>> see a lot of people faking a lot of people, believe it or not in few
>>>> occasions i was teaching two different classes in two different parts of
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> world all at the same time, and one of us was horrible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 6. *I like to see the "two day" lab back again*. Could you
>>>> imagine..........8 hours of configuration on day one, and another 8
>>>> hours
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> TS on day two; the TS should NOT have anything to do with what you
>>>> configured on day one. Increase the price of the test to accommodate
>>>> this
>>>> change. Wouldn t that be exciting?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe i am going crazy, i have been writing labs all day........i am
>>>>
>>> going
>>>
>>>> to sleep.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Shahid Ansari<shahid1357_at_gmail.com>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>> Subscription information may be found at:
>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Chris Proctor
>
>
> --
> This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean.
>
>

--
*Narbik Kocharians
*CCSI#30832, CCIE# 12410 (R&S, SP, Security)
www.MicronicsTraining.com <http://www.micronicstraining.com/>
Sr. Technical Instructor
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