Re: OT: high frequency trading

Are you serious? If any of the major vendors actually kept realistic and
unbaised ROI numbers there would be another tech meltdown as the whole
world goes open source. Well the systems world anyway... I'll eat my hat
if vyatta breaks the 1ms barrier this decade.

From:
Jared Scrivener <lists_at_jaredscrivener.com>
To:
Keegan.Holley_at_sungard.com
Cc:
Abdul <rslab007_at_gmail.com>, Anthony Bonilla
<anthonybonilla.ccie_at_gmail.com>, "ccielab_at_groupstudy.com"
<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>, Nahskur Udniraht <expertinternetwork_at_gmail.com>,
Gregory Gombas <ggombas_at_gmail.com>, "Joseph L. Brunner"
<joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>, nobody_at_groupstudy.com
Date:
02/13/2010 12:46 PM
Subject:
Re: OT: high frequency trading

But it is "expensive" technology for its own sake. That's what the vendors
love about it. And just to be unbiased if any SE wants to show some ROI
figures on their hardware vs other hardware in this environment I'd love
to see them and will gladly shill your product. :)

-- 
Cheers,
Jared Scrivener
CCSI #30878, CCIE3 #16983 (R&S, SP, Security)
www.MicronicsTraining.com
Sr. Technical Instructor
YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
Training And Remote Racks available
LinkedIn:www.linkedin.com/in/jaredscrivener
On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 3:37 AM, <Keegan.Holley_at_sungard.com> wrote:
I'm still not convinced that a trading application can serve up trades
that fast.  Also, many of the trading decisions are made by humans and we
haven't even reached the "seconds" world.  Infiniband is just another
gadget as is 10G and the inevitable 100G.  A normal bus usually operates
at about 8-10G anyway.  You're still thinking in terms of communication
between nodes.  What about actually generating and analyzing data? Storing
it?  Backing it up?  We are of course assuming that the actual exchange
can receive and process all this data at the speed at which it is chucked
at them without causing bottlenecks. We're also assuming that they care.
I'm not saying that it's impossible, but  I would just like to see a real
world comparison done that shows a 2ms trading house vs. a 10ms trading
house in the same colo.  Or even a trading house that saw real world
improvements (like those measured in dollars) after lowering their latency
to an exchange.  My gut says that most of this is technology for it's own
sake.
From:
Abdul <rslab007_at_gmail.com>
To:
Keegan.Holley_at_sungard.com
Cc:
Nahskur Udniraht <expertinternetwork_at_gmail.com>, Anthony Bonilla
<anthonybonilla.ccie_at_gmail.com>, "ccielab_at_groupstudy.com"
<ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>, Gregory Gombas <ggombas_at_gmail.com>, "Joseph L.
Brunner" <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>, nobody_at_groupstudy.com
Date:
02/13/2010 12:23 PM
Subject:
Re: OT: high frequency trading
Sent by:
<nobody_at_groupstudy.com>
Keegan,
You may a great point. And frankly your point is Cisco's argument why the
Nexus platform should still be considered for the High Frequency/Low
Latency
trading. So you right, .. once you've squeezed all the microseconds out of
the switch, and your "race to 0" is complete, it makes no sence to be
2microseconds better from one switch to another when the application still
adds 1millisecond of latency (more like a couple of milliseconds or even a
second).
But trading strategies out there are addressing that with
numerous optimization techniques on the software & even server
architecture
side. Finally this is where if you application is still that slow..
Infiniband? Hummm... Enough said.
Finally.. be advised.. most of this "advantage" on the latency side is
really played in the 10Gb arena. How many companies are serving up 10Gb of
data for consumption? Yeah, yeah, heard the serialization effect between
10Gb and 1Gb but seriously if your only pushing 1Gb of date on a 10Gb nic,
how much latency are you truly saving to the application?
Great topic, but really only Financial Services and High
computing environments are that concerned with shaving off microseconds.
For
the rest of the world, if you get your network to be milliseconds faster,
your the man. Cause their applications are still running in the seconds
world. :-)
On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 11:48 AM, <Keegan.Holley_at_sungard.com> wrote:
> Can you're software really move that fast?  I understand the ability to
> move data faster and oversubscription rates.  I simply have doubts that
> this translates to real world results.
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Nahskur Udniraht <expertinternetwork_at_gmail.com>
> To:
> Keegan.Holley_at_sungard.com
> Cc:
> "Joseph L. Brunner" <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>, Anthony Bonilla
> <anthonybonilla.ccie_at_gmail.com>, "ccielab_at_groupstudy.com"
> <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>, Gregory Gombas <ggombas_at_gmail.com>,
> nobody_at_groupstudy.com
> Date:
> 02/13/2010 08:29 AM
> Subject:
> Re: OT: high frequency trading
> Sent by:
> <nobody_at_groupstudy.com>
>
>
>
> network comes to play after you break 1 millisecond barrier ...
>
> we are using 4948 most of the time ...
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 6:50 PM, <Keegan.Holley_at_sungard.com> wrote:
>
> > This has been done and re-done over and over.  You can colo at the
> > exchange itself or there are probably a wealth of carrier hotels
within
> > 10ms of it.  The bottleneck is almost always going to be the software
> > though.  I haven't actually seen studies on this, but off the top of
my
> > head I'm curious about the benefit of lowering latency from 15ms to
say
> 2
> > or 3.  The software can take 1 or 2 full seconds or more to do it's DB
> > calls and actually use the connection.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > "Joseph L. Brunner" <joe_at_affirmedsystems.com>
> > To:
> > Gregory Gombas <ggombas_at_gmail.com>, Anthony Bonilla
> > <anthonybonilla.ccie_at_gmail.com>
> > Cc:
> > "ccielab_at_groupstudy.com" <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> > Date:
> > 02/12/2010 10:54 AM
> > Subject:
> > RE: OT: high frequency trading
> > Sent by:
> > <nobody_at_groupstudy.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually most shops send the orders to different exchanges and black
> books
> > and of course arbitrage between the price differences they can
exploit.
> > The can often find liquidity before anyone else knows it exists, and
> they
> > can send orders our for a very short time, of course pulling them if
> they
> > don't get the price they want...
> >
> > It's kind of a nice study to work with these guys- they do eat the
> slower
> > players lunch (that may be software not just location based slowness).
> >
> > Pretty much all the major players are already at the exchanges and
> > therefore you have to do it.
> >
> > -Joe
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf
Of
> > Gregory Gombas
> > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 9:17 AM
> > To: Anthony Bonilla
> > Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: OT: high frequency trading
> >
> > Tell them it won't matter anyway because whatever slight edge they
> > will get over their competitor by collocating at the exchange will
> > disappear once their competitor does the same :-)
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Anthony Bonilla
> > <anthonybonilla.ccie_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi all, I am back again.  Have a question regarding high frequency
> > trading.
> > > We are planning on collocating at an exchange for trading and are
> > looking
> > > for doing lowest latency possible.  I wanted to see if anyone else
is
> > doing
> > > this and if there are any recommendations.  I am currently thinking
> > about
> > > 4900M and nexus 5k (layer 2) but am interested in seeing what others
> > have
> > > done and whether there are any best practices from cisco to ensure
> that
> > we
> > > achive lowest latency.  TIA.
> > >
> > >
> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> > >
> > >
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >
> >
> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >
> >