Re: OT - Cisco plans to restrict using IOS for dynamips!

Wow I SO agree with you here Tyson. Awesome read!

-- 
Regards,
Rick Mur
CCIE2 #21946 (R&S / Service Provider)
Sr. Support Engineer  IPexpert, Inc.
URL: http://www.IPexpert.com
On 8 feb 2010, at 05:43, Tyson Scott wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> First I want to say that I have bet my entire career on Cisco and I enjoy
> Cisco as a company and I loved working for them in the past and maybe one
> day in the future I will work for them again.  (I want to first say this as
> some of my following remarks are going to sound negative and I want it to be
> understood that it is only in regards specifically to this thread.)
> 
> I have to agree with Iwan here and your tone and insults towards Iwan either
> show you haven't been in the computer industry very long or you don't see or
> don't agree with the big picture that many are arguing towards in this
> thread.
> 
> Do I think it is right for people to infringe on License agreements, no I do
> not.  If I have products in a production environment and I want to get
> support for it I feel it is very important to have valid licenses and people
> deserve to be paid for the hard work they put into development and support
> of a product.
> 
> What Cisco has failed to do is create a good developer test bed environment
> for test engineers and people that are interested in propagating their
> products.  It was already mentioned a while ago in this thread how harmful
> failing to do these things was for Novell in the past.  How many people on
> this list still use Novell in their environment?  For many years Novell
> still had better products than Microsoft but no one saw the need or lost
> interest due to many factors.
> 
> Microsoft for example has the MSDN subscription that you can purchase as a
> developer and allows you to use as much of their products as you want in a
> lab environment without license infringement.  I personally have an MSDN
> license for this reason.  I own licenses for all my production equipment but
> whatever I am messing around with or testing, which is a lot, I use my MSDN
> subscription for.  It isn't exactly free by any means but is realistic for
> Microsoft to charge for and allows me to legitimately use their products.
> And it allows me to continue to learn new information about their products
> and retain interest in continuing to use their product. 
> 
> Cisco has failed to initiate a similar program. There is nothing in place
> that allows people to legally use their software in a similar fashion.  Yes
> you can use much of it for 90 days with a trial license but how many people
> on this list have finished a CCIE in 90 days?  I know I have passed my SP
> and Security with studying for less than 30 days for each but that is not
> the norm.  (Studying for 30 days does not mean I was first introduced to the
> technologies and learned it all in 30 days, that is just the time I spent
> studying for the test specifically.)
> 
> Who on this list has implemented Dynamips into a production environment?
> The answer is going to be no one because it is not built for production.  If
> that was the goal of these users then I can see the problems with it but it
> is not.  In fact Cisco themselves have long seen the need for virtual
> testing thus IOU was created many years ago for Cisco employees.  I used it
> extensively as an employee.
> 
> Do I think this should all be for free no.  I have spent between $100,000 to
> $150,000 of my own personally money buying Cisco equipment to study for
> tests and to be a good instructor to people that want to learn about Cisco.
> Much of it will probably be end of life before this change happens but much
> of it I could never afford to get licensing for it all as it is way beyond
> the scope of my pay grade.  I have equipment similar to a multimillion
> dollar company but have the budget of a mom and pop shop.
> 
> (This isn't at all speaking of the equipment that is used by IPexpert for
> rack rentals as that is not personally mine.)  That is more money than
> almost anyone on this list so I have invested a great deal into the interest
> and the hopes that Cisco continues to be one of the most successful
> companies in the future as well. 
> 
> Cisco needs to implement some type of developer licensing that allows us all
> to continue to learn about their products and propagate their agenda or it
> will hurt them in the end.  Creating a Cisco Developer license would be the
> right direction to take and I would gladly purchase a developer license as I
> think many others would as well.
> 
> When I worked for Cisco in 2007 it was announced from John Chambers that his
> goal was to have 50,000 CCIE's by the end of 2010.  Now either this goal was
> lost in translation to the Learning at Cisco team or there has been a change
> in the direction of the program. Or they just haven't worked everything out
> to fully bring that goal to fruition.
> 
> I think for Cisco's program to continue to grow and allow for them to have a
> community of engineers that support and love their products they need to
> build a better developer/engineering community that is allowed to use their
> products under some type of developer subscription.  I think they would find
> that many people would be happy to pay to have that right but not doing this
> has lead to the current situation.  But right now you have a community of
> engineers that want to develop their understanding of a product and
> contribute to Cisco's end goals being cut at the knees for doing so.  In my
> opinion that is a very strange relationship.
> 
> In nature there is always a symbiotic relationship between predators and
> animals that help them.  Like sharks have a symbiotic relationship with the
> fish remora.  The remora help to clean the shark of parasites and keep them
> clean and thus the sharks do not eat them.  
> 
> In my opinion the CCIE community is much like the remora to Cisco.  You
> don't eat the fish that keep you healthy ;)
> 
> Adding another example I will go back to the time I worked at Cisco.  I
> remember a big contract that we gave millions of dollars worth of equipment
> to for pennies just to earn the bigger contracts that we were after.  Did it
> pay for us in the end? Yes it did.
> 
> In the same way having a community of the top engineers continuing to be
> comfortable and knowledgeable about Cisco's equipment in the end is going to
> be the better pay off for Cisco, at least in my opinion, then cutting off a
> large part of the community due to their economic circumstances or lack of
> availability to equipment because of not being lucky enough to work for the
> right company at the time.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tyson Scott - CCIE #13513 R&S, Security, and SP
> Technical Instructor - IPexpert, Inc.
> Mailto: tscott_at_ipexpert.com
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444, ext. 208
> Live Assistance, Please visit: www.ipexpert.com/chat
> eFax: +1.810.454.0130
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> Solski
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:36 PM
> To: groupstudy
> Subject: RE: OT - Cisco plans to restrict using IOS for dynamips!
> 
> Are you for real ?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> On 2010-02-07 17:34, Iwan Hoogendoorn wrote:
>> If this goed trough ,... this is just more proof the whole
>> certification track stuff can be 1 big commercial pile ...
>> 
>> I mean ... why be so greedy ...?
> 
> It is already present on some of the platforms and will be present
> on new ones. Calling a vendor 'greedy' when it is robbed by people not
> paying for licenses seems quite a remark. It doesn't hurt people using
> normal products, and it would be really a story for Cisco to change
> it's multibillion software development path and system just because
> 'there's dynamips!'. C'mon...
> 
> And when CCIE SP moves to - for example - IOS-XR, that's available for
> CRS-1, 12k and ASR9k, will you call again Cisco 'greedy'? Because it
> would cost a lot to build yourself a home lab out of them?
> 
> Think for a moment before spitting out clueless remarks and insult
> people or companies. If it doesn't go through the 'wait 30 seconds and
> read what I wrote' test, it is not worth sending. And if You don't
> look at a CCIE being worth something for you, skip it please. Nobody
> forces you to pass it.
> 
> -- 
> "Everything will be okay in the end. |                  #ukasz Bromirski
> If it's not okay, it's not the end. |       http://lukasz.bromirski.net
> 
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