Re: OT - V4, week 1, no new CCIEs?

Hi Johnny,

Methods of monitoring for cheating need to be consistent, fair, scalable
and not cost prohibitive. While cameras might be useful if you think you saw
use of prohibited items (e.g. mobile phones) in a lab and need a replay,
they would offer few insights into how a room full of candidates previously
obtained their knowledge. There are too many variables involved to allow for
conclusions to be drawn about a nervous strangers behaviour, by comparing
what they did not do to get things working with some notion of an ideal
methodology.

People who cheat take a short cut, and their skill set and breadth of
knowledge is likely reflect how big a short cut they have taken; Still I
expect that some cheats can verify the commands they have typed, and people
of varying ability who are not cheating do not always do so.

Identifying people who cheated in their exam preparation, before you
actually get to see the person, does not strike me as a simple task. Some
analysis techniques might help identify suspicious patterns, but you would
require a very high level of certainty to label someone a cheat. It would
be much easier to spot errors and inconsistencies which show that someone
has serious gaps in their knowledge or ability, regardless of whether they
cheated or not, and mark them as a fail.

The test is now more flexible than in the past, so it should be possible to
maintain more (and more frequent) variations. If cheating is seen as less
likely to be productive, fewer people will try to do it. Likewise if it is
seen as posing a high risk of getting caught, people are less likely to do
it.

Discussed this some months ago with a few list members and suggested that
one approach might be for cisco to feed answers (right or wrong) for made up
scenarios and questions to the braindump companies, and then incorporate
some of those particular answers into new questions where they would become
incorrect. They could also make subtle changes to questions week to week,
e.g. modifying real questions which have leaked out so that last weeks
previously correct answer is still in the available options (just as a wrong
one). Monitoring for this kind of response might provide some interesting
indicators. Give the cheat the opportunity to show to you they are a
cheat. Much more fun for the proctors than watching 8 or 10 views of sweaty
candidates typing away for 8 hours.

Paul.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Johnny B CCIE <jbccie_at_gmail.com> wrote:

> Or put a camera on each student and log the keystrokes. Did the person
> verify or did they just write erase, reload, and type in the correct
> answers.
>
> I like the human network and the tether around the throat approach.
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:30 PM, <Charles.Henson_at_regions.com> wrote:
> > That's funny, I was thinking the complete opposite. I like the idea,
> don't
> > get me wrong. But, if you want to protect the integrity of the lab, don't
> > make it cheaper and more readily available. Do the opposite. Constrain
> the
> > number of testing centers. Knock it back to a "core 4" if necessary. Park
> > the mobile lab. Heck, I'm a camper. I'll gut the RV and renovate it for
> the
> > kids. Then have each lab done with a proctor tethered to you. Seriously.
> > For $1400 each candidate has an 8 hour lab with a proctor at his side
> > grilling him the whole way. Critiquing the setup. Asking questions to the
> > candidate. That will weed out the cheats. Less automation and more human
> > interaction. That is how you protect the certification.
> >
> > Charles Henson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Atlanta CCIE <atlantaccie_at_gmail.com>
> >
> > To: "Routt, Rob" <Rob.Routt_at_itron.com>,
> Charles.Henson_at_regions.com, Radioactive Frog
> > <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com>, Brad Ellis <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>,
> Cisco certification
> > <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>, nobody_at_groupstudy.com, omar
> parihuana <omar.parihuana_at_gmail.com>, Roy
> > Waterman <roy.waterman_at_gmail.com>, Smooth IE <
> smoothccie_at_googlemail.com>
> >
> > Date: 10/30/2009 01:29 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: OT - V4, week 1, no new CCIEs?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Great ideas guy!
> >
> > On 10/30/09, Routt, Rob <Rob.Routt_at_itron.com> wrote:
> >> I tell you what, written every 3 and lab-sim every 5, lower the cost to
> >> $300, and let me take it at VUE for say a 5 hour hands-on. That would
> >> definitely sell a lot of workbooks and keep the IE population on its
> >> toes and current; thereby topping any cert in the world in
> >> value(definitively). The thing that has to happen is that Cisco, VUE, or
> >> whomever would have to verify the integrity of the labs or set-up 1,000
> >> or so scenarios/labs. Who could memorize all of those if compromised?
> >> Then, it changes more frequently too, no need to wait 3 years to add
> >> MPLS or take away old technologies. That would take a lot of commitment
> >> from Cisco I think, but it would also almost guarantee the integrity of
> >> the exam. Difficult, PIA, not reasonable, agreed.
> >>
> >> I should get back to studying...
> >>
> >> -R
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> >> Atlanta CCIE
> >> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 6:53 AM
> >> To: Charles.Henson_at_regions.com; Radioactive Frog; Brad Ellis; Cisco
> >> certification; nobody_at_groupstudy.com; omar parihuana; Roy Waterman;
> >> Smooth IE
> >> Subject: Re: OT - V4, week 1, no new CCIEs?
> >>
> >> Take out the luck factor aka OEQs and we have 6 hours for config part.
> >> I just HOPE they keep changing the stuff otherwise we will be in the
> >> same situation.
> >>
> >> Also - let's remove the thing about recert with written. Every three
> >> years you MUST pass ANY ccie track's lab to recert. Now THAT will be
> >> something :)
> >>
> >> On 10/30/09, Charles.Henson_at_regions.com <Charles.Henson_at_regions.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Yeah I saw that. I was thinking about going back at the end of the
> >>> year but I think I might need to re-focus on a few things.
> >>> ALL-FROM-NJs thread definitely was a good write-up and has me
> >> thinking....
> >>>
> >>> Charles Henson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Radioactive Frog <pbhatkoti_at_gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To: Atlanta CCIE <atlantaccie_at_gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cc: omar parihuana <omar.parihuana_at_gmail.com>, Roy Waterman
> >>> <roy.waterman_at_gmail.com>, Brad Ellis
> >>> <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>, Smooth IE
> >>> <smoothccie_at_googlemail.com>, Cisco certification
> >>> <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Date: 10/30/2009 07:05 AM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Subject: Re: OT - V4, week 1, no new CCIEs?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> looks like when lab changes it has a good effect :)
> >>>
> >>> 32 days and only 6 voice ccie ?
> >>>
> >>> *CCIE Count Change by Country*
> >>> [image: CCIE Count Change by
> >>> Country]<
> >>> http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/ccie/certified_ccies/worldwide.h
> >>> tml>
> >>> Source: Dual CCIE #18532 George Morton
> >>> <http://www.madisonsolutions.net/>
> >>>
> >>> Growth of the China CCIE count goes negative by -9
> >>> http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/46893
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Atlanta CCIE
> >>> <atlantaccie_at_gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I hear you. My point was that you only had to CONFIGURE 59 points
> >>>> worth
> >>> of
> >>>> tasks to pass ASSUMING you got 21 on the OEQs. Before folks had to
> >>>> CONFIGURE 80 points worth of tasks :) Thats all.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:01 PM, omar parihuana
> >>>> <omar.parihuana_at_gmail.com
> >>>> >wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > hahaha... sorry guy but many people din't pass between Feb and
> >> Oct...
> >>>> and
> >>>> > after OEQ introduction IMHO the lab exam wasn't ever a fair game...
> >>
> >>>> > if
> >>>> you
> >>>> > got 100% in lab sectio and fail at least 2/4 in OEQ you failed.. so
> >>
> >>>> > why
> >>>> the
> >>>> > "easiest of rides"?... if you weren't able to answer 3/4 OEQ game
> >>>> > over!! have you asked somebody who took the exam before Feb and
> >>>> > retook between Feb-Oct if the lab exam was more difficult before
> >>>> > Feb,
> >>> and
> >>>> > easy after Feb?
> >>>> >
> >>>> > RGds.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Atlanta CCIE
> >>>> ><atlantaccie_at_gmail.com
> >>>> >wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> So it appears that anyone who passed during Feb 2009 - Oct 18th
> >>>> >> 2009
> >>> had
> >>>> >> the
> >>>> >> easiest of rides............. 21 Points and get 59 points on the
> >>>> >> lab
> >>> and
> >>>> >> you
> >>>> >> are set. I have heard stories where folks were done by 12pm :D
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Roy Waterman
> >>>> >> <roy.waterman_at_gmail.com
> >>>> >> >wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> > Hi Brad
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Based on this fact, if the situation were to continue with some
> >>>> >> > more
> >>>> >> weeks
> >>>> >> > passing with noone or a couple of ppl passing, would Cisco be
> >>> looking
> >>>> to
> >>>> >> > make appropriate changes so that people who do know their stuff
> >>>> >> > are
> >>>> able
> >>>> >> to
> >>>> >> > have a decent chance of passing?
> >>>> >> > From reports, it does appear to me that running out of time is a
> >>> much
> >>>> >> > bigger
> >>>> >> > problem than it was in v3.
> >>>> >> > It appears that:
> >>>> >> > - there isnt time to go back over your work to verify
> >>>> >> > - there isnt time to diagram or read the lab
> >>>> >> > - there isnt time to go back over questions you may have got
> >>>> >> > stuck
> >>> on
> >>>> >> > earlier
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Just curious as to whether you know if Cisco are happy with
> >>>> >> > things
> >>> as
> >>>> >> they
> >>>> >> > are, and intend to keep them that way, & also whether they
> >>>> >> > intend to
> >>>> act
> >>>> >> > upon what certain ppl who took the beta lab had to say (one of
> >>>> >> > which
> >>>> was
> >>>> >> > time ;))
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > 2009/10/27 Brad Ellis <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > > It's confirmed: as of yesterday, no one has passed the new
> >>>> >> > > CCIE
> >>> R&S
> >>>> >> lab
> >>>> >> > > exam. Some people have passed certain parts, but no one has
> >>>> >> > > passed
> >>>> all
> >>>> >> > > three parts - at least yet!
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > > thanks,
> >>>> >> > > Brad Ellis
> >>>> >> > > CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> >>>> >> > > CCSI# 30482
> >>>> >> > > CEO / President
> >>>> >> > > CCBOOTCAMP - Cisco Learning Solutions Partner (CLSP)
> >>>> >> > > Email: brad_at_ccbootcamp.com
> >>>> >> > > Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> >>>> >> > > International: +1-702-968-5100
> >>>> >> > > Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> >>>> >> > > FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> >>>> >> > > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> >>>> >> > > Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >>>> >> > > From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On
> >>>> Behalf
> >>>> >> Of
> >>>> >> > > Smooth IE
> >>>> >> > > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:19 PM
> >>>> >> > > To: Cisco certification
> >>>> >> > > Subject: Re: OT - V4, week 1, no new CCIEs?
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > > my friend claims to have passed last week. not sure of any
> >>>> >> > > more
> >>>> >> details
> >>>> >> > > other than taht yet.
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > > 2009/10/26 Brad Ellis <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > > > Im at building C in SJ right now. Based on the # of people
> >>> waiting
> >>>> >> (or
> >>>> >> > > > lack there of) for the proctor this morning, I'd venture to
> >>>> >> > > > say
> >>>> >> > > there's
> >>>> >> > > > a LOT of capacity for the R&S exam right now. I usually see
> >>>> >> > > > 10+
> >>>> >> people
> >>>> >> > > > waiting in the Building C lobby at 8.10am. Today, there were
> >>> only
> >>>> >> four
> >>>> >> > > > total!
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > thanks,
> >>>> >> > > > Brad Ellis
> >>>> >> > > > CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> >>>> >> > > > CCSI# 30482
> >>>> >> > > > CEO / President
> >>>> >> > > > CCBOOTCAMP - Cisco Learning Solutions Partner (CLSP)
> >>>> >> > > > Email: brad_at_ccbootcamp.com
> >>>> >> > > > Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> >>>> >> > > > International: +1-702-968-5100
> >>>> >> > > > Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> >>>> >> > > > FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> >>>> >> > > > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> >>>> >> > > > Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>>> >> > > > From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com]
> >>>> >> > > > On
> >>>> >> Behalf
> >>>> >> > > Of
> >>>> >> > > > Jonny English
> >>>> >> > > > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:05 AM
> >>>> >> > > > To: Rick Mur
> >>>> >> > > > Cc: Vibeesh S; Atlanta CCIE; Hammer; Cisco certification
> >>>> >> > > > Subject: Re: OT - V4, week 1, no new CCIEs?
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > last week someone said testing centers were full.....
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 2:17 AM, Rick Mur
> >>>> >> > > > <rmur_at_ipexpert.com>
> >>>> >> wrote:
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > > I also think that the test centers were really empty the
> >>>> >> > > > > last
> >>>> >> week.
> >>>> >> > > I
> >>>> >> > > > think
> >>>> >> > > > > people are quite scared of the new lab format and wait on
> >>>> >> > > > > the
> >>>> >> first
> >>>> >> > > > > responses :-)
> >>>> >> > > > >
> >>>> >> > > > >
> >>>> >> > > > > --
> >>>> >> > > > >
> >>>> >> > > > > Regards,
> >>>> >> > > > >
> >>>> >> > > > > Rick Mur
> >>>> >> > > > > CCIE2 #21946 (R&S / Service Provider)
> >>>> >> > > > > Sr. Support Engineer IPexpert, Inc.
> >>>> >> > > > > URL: http://www.IPexpert.com <http://www.ipexpert.com/>
> >>>> >> > > > >
> >>>> >> > > > >
> >>>> >> > > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Vibeesh S
> >>> <vibselva_at_gmail.com>
> >>>> >> > > wrote:
> >>>> >> > > > >
> >>>> >> > > > >> I don't think many would have taken the lab in the first
> >>>> >> > > > >> week
> >>>> >> after
> >>>> >> > > > >> change.
> >>>> >> > > > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Atlanta CCIE
> >>>> >> > > <atlantaccie_at_gmail.com>
> >>>> >> > > > >> wrote:
> >>>> >> > > > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >> > Sucks for the people of the 3rd world countries. Oh
> >>>> >> > > > >> > wait
> >>>> until
> >>>> >> > > > things
> >>>> >> > > > >> > start leaking out of china and india and may be dubai
> >>>> >> > > > >> > :)
> >>>> >> > > > >> >
> >>>> >> > > > >> > On 10/26/09, Jonny English <redkidneybeans_at_gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> >> > > > >> > > not everyone posts on GS. So who knows, someone might
> >>> have
> >>>> >> > > > passed.
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >
> >>>> >> > > > >> > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Hammer
> >>> <bhmccie_at_gmail.com
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> > > > wrote:
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> OK, It's been a week. Did ANYONE pass the lab or
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> hear of
> >>>> >> > > anyone
> >>>> >> > > > >> passing
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> the
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> first week? NO, I did not expect it. I was just
> >> curious.
> >>>> >> We've
> >>>> >> > > > >> certainly
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> seen the comments from those that visited the labs
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> this
> >>>> >> week.
> >>>> >> > > > Nothing
> >>>> >> > > > >> in
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> their comments made me feel good but we all know
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> that
> >>>> Cisco
> >>>> >> > > > needs
> >>>> >> > > > >> some
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> time
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> to burn in the new setup.
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> Back to BGP.....
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> -Hammer
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >>
> >>>> >> > > > >>
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>> _
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >> Subscription information may be found at:
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> >>>> >> > > > >> > >
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >
> >>>> >> > > > >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >
> >>>> >> > > > >> > >
> >>>> >> > > > >>
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>> _
> >>>> >> > > > >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
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> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>> _
> >>>> >> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
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> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
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> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>> _
> >>>> >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
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> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>> _
> >>>> >> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>> >> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> > >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > --
> >>>> >> > Regards
> >>>> >> > Roy
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> _____________________________________________________________________
> >>>> __
> >>>> >> > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>> >> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >> CCIE# 17xxx
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>> _
> >>>> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >>>> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > Omar E.P.T
> >>>> > -----------------
> >>>> > Certified Networking Professionals make better Connections!
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> CCIE# 17xxx
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>>>
> >>>> _____________________________________________________________________
> >>>> __ Subscription information may be found at:
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________________
> >>> _ Subscription information may be found at:
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from my mobile device
> >>
> >> CCIE# 17xxx
> >>
> >>
> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> > CCIE# 17xxx
> >
> >
> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
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> >
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>
>
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>
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Received on Fri Oct 30 2009 - 23:18:14 ART