Oh yes, bring back DLSW and IPX and having to setup for an appletalk zone
too. I'm game.
Thanks
-- Larry Hadrava, Larryh_at_INE.com CCIE #12203 (R&S) Internetwork Expert, Inc. http://www.INE.com >----- Original Message ----- From: "" <charles.henson_at_regions.com> Sent: Thu, October 8, 2009 13:47 Subject:Re: OT - Version 4 Scoring I've said it before and I'll say it again, just give me the old two day lab again..... Yes, I'll start reading up on my Token Ring..... Charles Henson From: Scott Morris <smorris_at_ine.com> To: Nadeem Rafi <nrafia_at_gmail.com> Cc: Brad Ellis <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>, Charles.Henson_at_regions.com, Cisco certification <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>, "Rick Smith (smithr)" <smithr_at_cisco.com> Date: 10/08/2009 12:38 PM Subject: Re: OT - Version 4 Scoring And amazingly, there isn't an "inside track" on things unless one is only beginning to pay attention or talk to people. ;) The funny thing is that troubleshooting is both a process and an art form. Whether you are doing it on 50 devices or on 5 devices doesn't change the art/process. It just changes your scalability and your difficulty with creating materials that are pseudo-independent trouble tickets (e.g. easier). Not needing to get into vendor wars about who is better at stuff, but rest assured that there isn't an inside track that the rest of the world is clueless about. But remember, as seen on TV, if you order in the next 20 minutes only, you can get not one but TWO of the semi-secret message decoder rings.... but act now! (I got my decoder ring from Captain Crunch when I was 10 years old, but I'm sure Brad may have the inside track on that!) In the end, the blueprint is the same. And you are relying on people interpretation and skill level to teach to the blueprint and the thought process. Evaluate your options, make your choices... If you see a mirror, run. *Scott Morris*, CCIE/x4/ (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M #153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al. JNCI-M, JNCI-ER evil_at_ine.com Internetwork Expert, Inc. http://www.InternetworkExpert.com Toll Free: 877-224-8987 Outside US: 775-826-4344 Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard and be Eeeeviiiil...... Nadeem Rafi wrote: > Brad thanks for you suggestion but who will pay this 360 "huge money". If > you can find out this solution it will be great help :) May be 360 is good > but money wise INE is best :) > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Brad Ellis <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com> wrote: > > >> Very correct Nadeem. Layer 2 troubleshooting will be in the >> configuration portion of the new lab exam (per Maurilio). The >> troubleshooting portion of the new exam will focus on Layer 3 and above >> issues. The Cisco 360 developers already have the inside track on this. >> If you're looking to study for the new V4 lab exam, I'd really suggest >> using Cisco 360 (even if you don't purchase it from CCBOOTCAMP and you >> go to a different 360 provider). One of the huge goals of the Cisco 360 >> Learning Program is stream-lining the learning process, even more so for >> V4, in an effort to remove 6 months or so from other study methods >> (check the slides in the preso we did that Rick presented). I've cc'd >> Rick on this email, and you are more than welcome to contact him as well >> with any direct questions regarding Cisco 360's learning/training >> methodology. >> >> thanks, >> Brad Ellis >> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) >> CCSI# 30482 >> CEO / President >> CCBOOTCAMP - Cisco Learning Solutions Partner (CLSP) >> Email: brad_at_ccbootcamp.com >> Toll Free: 877-654-2243 >> International: +1-702-968-5100 >> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call >> FAX: +1-702-446-8012 >> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits! >> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of >> Nadeem Rafi >> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:25 AM >> To: Anthony Sequeira >> Cc: Charles.Henson_at_regions.com; Cisco certification >> Subject: Re: OT - Version 4 Scoring >> >> Hi anthony i will recommend you to watch ccbootcamp video this time >> :)Murilio >> said clearly that there will be no layer two trouble tickets in trouble >> shooting section. Second one trouble ticket will not affect any other >> trouble ticket, this is main reason to have so many routers to make >> trouble >> tickets independent of each other. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Anthony Sequeira <asequeira_at_ine.com> >> wrote: >> >> >>> While we *only* feature 13 devices in our Troubleshooting materials, >>> >> we >> >>> ensure the candidate is tested at all possible levels. For example, in >>> >> the >> >>> new 6-Day R&S Bootcamp, Trouble Tickets encompass issues like Layer 2, >>> >> Layer >> >>> 3 IGP Routing, Layer 3 EGP Routing, and Multicast troubleshooting. >>> >>> Also remember, just because Cisco might present 20 devices in the >>> >> overall >> >>> section - the Trouble Tickets will certainly not incorporate all of >>> >> the >> >>> devices at once. In fact, with students receiving 10 to 12 Trouble >>> >> Tickets, >> >>> it is quite clear that these are issues that are rather isolated >>> >> throughout >> >>> the topology. >>> >>> Also worth mention is the fact that Layer 2/3 switch troubleshooting >>> >> must >> >>> still be isolated to the Configuration section now since the emulator >>> >> does >> >>> not support switches. >>> >>> Warmest Regards, >>> >>> Anthony J. Sequeira, CCIE #15626 >>> http://www.INE.com >>> >>> Test your Core Knowledge today! >>> Q: What PIM mode was invented by Cisco for Auto-RP functionality? >>> A: PIM SParse-Dense-Mode >>> More Info: >>> >>> >> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/ios/ipmulti/configuration/guide/imc_tech >> _oview_ps6350_TSD_Products_Configuration_Guide_Chapter.html#wp1054989 >> >>> >>> On Oct 8, 2009, at 10:04 AM, Charles.Henson_at_regions.com wrote: >>> >>> WOW. So if that is the case, it makes things interesting. How do >>> >> potential >> >>>> candidates emulate that environment for studies? Realistically how >>>> >> far >> >>>> down >>>> could you scale it and still get the same benefit for the >>>> >> troubleshooting >> >>>> section? How do vendors like IE, IPE, CCBootcamp, etc. come up with >>>> workbooks and training that emulates that? Again, we're a bit ahead >>>> >> of the >> >>>> game here..... >>>> >>>> I have also pushed 20 devices on dynamips with an older dual 3.2 HP >>>> >> server >> >>>> and 6gb of memory that I had available for testing. For the fun of >>>> >> it, I >> >>>> have reached out this morning to the server team to ask if I can >>>> >> "borrow" >> >>>> one of their new fat servers for a day to see how far I can push >>>> >> dynamips. >> >>>> 8 way cores with 64gb of memory are the norm. It's not something >>>> >> every >> >>>> candidate can pick up at the pawn shop but I just want to see how far >>>> dynamips will go. >>>> >>>> Has anyone "pushed" dynamips before to see what kind of cap it may or >>>> >> may >> >>>> not have? >>>> >>>> Charles Henson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: "Tyson Scott" <tscott_at_ipexpert.com> >>>> >>>> To: "'Peter Dsouza \(petdsouz\)'" <petdsouz_at_cisco.com>, < >>>> Charles.Henson_at_regions.com> >>>> >>>> Cc: "'Brad Ellis'" <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>, < >>>> ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>, "'Justin Mitchell'" <jgmitchell_at_gmail.com>, >>>> "'Nathan >>>> Richie'" <nathanr_at_boice.net>, <nobody_at_groupstudy.com>, >>>> "'Nadeem Rafi'" <nrafia_at_gmail.com> >>>> >>>> Date: 10/08/2009 12:37 AM >>>> >>>> Subject: RE: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Peter, >>>> >>>> There is talk that the troubleshooting portion of the lab could >>>> >> consist of >> >>>> up to 30 routers for a given troubleshooting lab. I would like to >>>> >> see >> >>>> anyone get 30 routers running stable on their workstation with >>>> >> Dynamips >> >>>> supporting the latest 12.4T code and the right memory requirements. >>>> >> I can >> >>>> get 20 routers on my 8 core 16 GB memory no problem but 30 is pushing >>>> >> it >> >>>> for >>>> sure. And how many people have a system like that sitting around. >>>> >>>> On the same system running IOU I could probably run close to 100 >>>> >> routers >> >>>> without the blink of an eye. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Tyson Scott - CCIE #13513 R&S, Security, and SP >>>> Technical Instructor - IPexpert, Inc. >>>> >>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444 >>>> Cell: +1.248.504.7309 >>>> Fax: +1.810.454.0130 >>>> Mailto: tscott_at_ipexpert.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Peter Dsouza (petdsouz) [mailto:petdsouz_at_cisco.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 1:08 AM >>>> To: Charles.Henson_at_regions.com; Tyson Scott >>>> Cc: Brad Ellis; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com; Justin Mitchell; Nathan >>>> >> Richie; >> >>>> nobody_at_groupstudy.com; Nadeem Rafi >>>> Subject: RE: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>> >>>> There is no need to get your hands on IOU if you've Dynamips. Its >>>> >> just >> >>>> an internal Cisco router emulator. Supported on Linux and Sun, >>>> >> suports >> >>>> Ethernet (no FE or GE), ATM and serial interfaces. >>>> >>>> cheers >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf >>>> >> Of >> >>>> Charles.Henson_at_regions.com >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 7:23 AM >>>> To: Tyson Scott >>>> Cc: 'Brad Ellis'; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com; 'Justin Mitchell'; 'Nathan >>>> Richie'; nobody_at_groupstudy.com; 'Nadeem Rafi' >>>> Subject: RE: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>> >>>> Thanks for the education everyone. Not being a Cisco insider I had >>>> always >>>> assumed they developed and played on virtual gear but didn't know the >>>> name >>>> or capability. Yeah, I assumed we would not have direct access to >>>> anything >>>> except terminals so it would be transparent to us. >>>> >>>> Now where do we get the IOU ISO? :) >>>> >>>> Charles Henson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: "Tyson Scott" <tscott_at_ipexpert.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To: <Charles.Henson_at_regions.com>, "'Justin Mitchell'" >>>> <jgmitchell_at_gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cc: "'Brad Ellis'" <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>, >>>> <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>, "'Nathan Richie'" <nathanr_at_boice.net>, >>>> >>>> <nobody_at_groupstudy.com>, "'Nadeem Rafi'" >>>> <nrafia_at_gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Date: 10/07/2009 07:19 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Subject: RE: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Charles, >>>> >>>> IOU is actually more stable than dynamips but from your perspective >>>> >> you >> >>>> won't know the difference as you will just have terminal access to >>>> >> the >> >>>> routers as you would other devices in the lab. >>>> >>>> IOU has been around for a long time. Originally it was only >>>> >> supported >> >>>> on >>>> SUN workstations with a SPARC processor but within the last few years >>>> >> it >> >>>> has >>>> migrated to mostly Linux and was always a very good tool when I >>>> >> worked >> >>>> for >>>> Advanced Services. >>>> >>>> IOU has always been a tightly kept secret of Cisco's. Not sure if >>>> >> they >> >>>> will >>>> release it to learning partners as we were never allowed to show it >>>> >> to >> >>>> our >>>> customers. >>>> >>>> I would love to get my hands on it as it is better than dynamips and >>>> more >>>> efficient. But thank heavens for dynamips right for the rest of us. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Tyson Scott - CCIE #13513 R&S, Security, and SP >>>> Technical Instructor - IPexpert, Inc. >>>> >>>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444 >>>> Cell: +1.248.504.7309 >>>> Fax: +1.810.454.0130 >>>> Mailto: tscott_at_ipexpert.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf >>>> >> Of >> >>>> Charles.Henson_at_regions.com >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:31 PM >>>> To: Justin Mitchell >>>> Cc: Brad Ellis; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com; Nathan Richie; >>>> nobody_at_groupstudy.com; Nadeem Rafi >>>> Subject: Re: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>> >>>> I wasn't very clear. I am very familiar with dynamips/GNS3. I was >>>> >> just >> >>>> curious how close IOU would look/feel to the GNS3 that many of us are >>>> used >>>> to. More than likely, we'll just get terminal windows and won't know >>>> >> the >> >>>> difference........until it crashes.... :) >>>> >>>> Charles Henson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Justin Mitchell <jgmitchell_at_gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To: Charles.Henson_at_regions.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cc: Brad Ellis <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com>, >>>> >> ccielab_at_groupstudy.com, >> >>>> Nathan Richie <nathanr_at_boice.net>, nobody_at_groupstudy.com, >>>> Nadeem Rafi <nrafia_at_gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Date: 10/07/2009 03:59 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No, GNS3 is a whole separate project used Dynamips and Dynagen. GNS3 >>>> is actually just a GUI for Dynamips/Dynagen to make it easier to use. >>>> Dynamips is a hardware emulator. >>>> >>>> Justin G. Mitchell >>>> e: jgmitchell_at_gmail.com | skype: justin.g.mitchell >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:50 PM, <Charles.Henson_at_regions.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Just finished watching. Thanks for the link Brad. >>>>> >>>>> Does IOU = GNS3? >>>>> >>>>> Charles Henson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: "Brad Ellis" <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com> >>>>> >>>>> To: "Nadeem Rafi" <nrafia_at_gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> Cc: "Nathan Richie" <nathanr_at_boice.net>, >>>>> >>>>> >>>> <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: 10/07/2009 12:21 PM >>>>> >>>>> Subject: RE: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Right here: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?AT=pb&SP=EC&rID=40520377 >> >>>>> &rKey=4a695ccb75726703 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Brad Ellis >>>>> >>>>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) >>>>> >>>>> CCSI# 30482 >>>>> >>>>> CEO / President >>>>> >>>>> CCBOOTCAMP - Cisco Learning Solutions Partner (CLSP) >>>>> >>>>> Email: brad_at_ccbootcamp.com >>>>> >>>>> Toll Free: 877-654-2243 >>>>> >>>>> International: +1-702-968-5100 >>>>> >>>>> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call >>>>> >>>>> FAX: +1-702-446-8012 >>>>> >>>>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits! >>>>> >>>>> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com >>>>> <http://www.ccbootcamp.com/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Nadeem Rafi [mailto:nrafia_at_gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 9:22 AM >>>>> To: Brad Ellis >>>>> Cc: Nathan Richie; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com >>>>> Subject: Re: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> i have missed the webnar.. how to get recording? >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Brad Ellis <brad_at_ccbootcamp.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Nathan. >>>>> >>>>> As you probably saw in the webinar yesterday, the new exam will be >>>>> comprised of three different separate sections: >>>>> >>>>> Core Knowledge (OEQ) >>>>> Troubleshooting >>>>> Configuration >>>>> >>>>> You must pass EACH individual section in order to pass the lab exam. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> In >>>> >>>> >>>>> other words, if you fail a single section, then you fail the exam. >>>>> >> One >> >>>>> of the most interesting items that was discussed during the event >>>>> yesterday is the direction Cisco is heading with using virtual >>>>> equipment. The ENTIRE troubleshooting portion of the new lab exam >>>>> >> will >> >>>>> be done on Cisco IOU (software emulator). This gives the lab exam >>>>> >> team >> >>>>> the ability to conjure up a larger network very easily. Fun stuff! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> thanks, >>>>> Brad Ellis >>>>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) >>>>> CCSI# 30482 >>>>> CEO / President >>>>> CCBOOTCAMP - Cisco Learning Solutions Partner (CLSP) >>>>> Email: brad_at_ccbootcamp.com >>>>> Toll Free: 877-654-2243 >>>>> International: +1-702-968-5100 >>>>> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call >>>>> FAX: +1-702-446-8012 >>>>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits! >>>>> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Nathan Richie [mailto:nathanr_at_boice.net] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:49 PM >>>>> To: Brad Ellis; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com >>>>> Subject: RE: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>>> >>>>> Cool, thanks Brad >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Brad Ellis [mailto:brad_at_ccbootcamp.com] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:35 PM >>>>> To: Nathan Richie; ccielab_at_groupstudy.com >>>>> Subject: RE: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>>> >>>>> Nathan, >>>>> >>>>> Hi! I had dinner with Maurilio tonight (and Russ White). Maurilio >>>>> >> did >> >>>>> confirm that he is going to discuss the details of the score >>>>> requirements in the webinar next week. Should be interesting to hear >>>>> people's feedback... :) >>>>> >>>>> thanks, >>>>> Brad Ellis >>>>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) >>>>> CCSI# 30482 >>>>> CEO / President >>>>> CCBOOTCAMP - Cisco Learning Solutions Partner (CLSP) >>>>> Email: brad_at_ccbootcamp.com >>>>> Toll Free: 877-654-2243 >>>>> International: +1-702-968-5100 >>>>> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call >>>>> FAX: +1-702-446-8012 >>>>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits! >>>>> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com >>>>> CCIE Webinar: http://www.ccbootcamp.com/cciewebex.html >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Of >>>> >>>> >>>>> Nathan Richie >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:51 AM >>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com >>>>> Subject: OT - Version 4 Scoring >>>>> >>>>> Does anybody know if any more has been said about the scoring of the >>>>> version 4 >>>>> lab? I have heard and read that you will need 80 points, but I was >>>>> wondering >>>>> if Cisco has or if anybody thinks Cisco will provide any more detail >>>>> than >>>>> that. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Nathan Richie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>>> Subscription information may be found at: >>>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>>> >>>> >>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >>> Subscription information may be found at: >>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >>> >> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> Subscription information may be found at: >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html >> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Subscription information may be found at: > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.netReceived on Thu Oct 08 2009 - 12:54:13 ART
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