Re: CCIE Amnesty?

On the flip side:

Scott is correct and I've mentioned this in a number of places as well that
a CCIE should not be hampered from earning a living as a CCIE.

Partners are limited to their country for the most part or region. In come
countries it is common practice for a Partner and I understand correct for a
Partner to employ CCIE's outside of its own boundaries to meet Partner
requirements - as specified and allowed by Cisco.

Now the problem that this message speaks to is to CCIE's who rent out their
numbers to peopel for whom they do not work.

To speak from both sides, did any notice what stemmed this conversation or
by whom originally? A recruiter. Not just a recruiter but a recruiter who
professes to recruit CCIE's for none other than Cisco Partners....

Take everythng you read with a hint of salt.

Let me throw on my other hat for a moment.

A Cisco Professional should not be harmed nor hampered from earning a living
using the credentials for which qualified.

The argument that a CCIE cannot rent his or credentials is as ludicrous and
ridiculous as saying that a lawyer cannot charge a retainer for his or her
services.

With me - consider the concept.

It is been a long-standing and accepted practice that Cisco allows a Cisco
Channel Partner to only require 50% of its employees to be "employees" for
the company.

Sorry to all this information may offend. It's true.

It just is.

Now how can this be...

It's called a contract.

A Cisco Professional all the way up to a CCIE can offer "services" 100% to a
Cisco Channel Partner for a term of employment or contract.

A Channel Partner can accept said services in return for some consideration
- $1.00, $10.00, $100,000.00 etc. The number is irrelevant. The idea is
the contractor offers services and the partner values those services and
agrees to pay a sum for those services. Just like that.

The Channel Partner needs the Cisco Professional for typically 6 months or
until audited. This gives our hero time to bail and find another sweet
contract.

Now does a Cisco Professional actually have to do work of a CCIE to this
consideration? Well if the CEO is a CCIE and if he is on this list does he
have to as well? Maybe or maybe not.

Cisco and any Cisco Recruiter should choose their words wisely here.

See as a contractor who has accepted a sum for a contract for my services
that were offered for consideration - i.e. I have been paid a sum (in my
case it was some $10,000.00) for a term of 6 months to agree to remain
certified with credentials and to also be available on an ad-hoc basis for a
sum of $150.00 per hour.

The contract was pretty much legal. I did what I had to do. And of course
so did the Partner in question.

The partner met the audit requirements and I got paid for meeting my
requirements for the term of service offered.

Simple as that.

So while I find it highly improbable that Cisco will ever "decertify" anyone
I do not find it "impossible" for them to do so.

I do warn that if Cisco were going to take such a step, it would likely come
from Cisco and not from any 3rd party recruiter or otherwise.

Common sense must prevail.

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Scott Morris <smorris_at_ine.com> wrote:

> Ok.... So, I'm missing something.
>
> I have an issue with the "country" thing because a partner may provide
> services to more than one country, and the CCIE may do work in many places
> while living in a different one (as John Chambers says, it's the "global
> economy"). But even traveling to a different country doesn't constitute any
> permanency (just make sure you have a business visa!). I just don't see
> what business it is of Cisco's where someone earns their money.
>
> Channel partners (where I think this is stemming from) have restrictions by
> country or theatre, subject to their audit/review process. But that's not
> the choice, or responsibility of the CCIE to keep up with where their
> company is or is not allowed to do business.
>
> As for those who "rent" their numbers out, I believe that Cisco does indeed
> allow half of the required certifications to be held by contractors. While
> the intent there is to assure that some business (real work) is being done,
> that becomes and audit area on the channel side.
>
> Now, I just went through the CCIE policies (
> http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/ccie/policies/index.html) and looked
> at the Certifications and Confidentiality Agreement (
> http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/downloads/Cisco-Career-Certifications-and-Confidentiality-Agreement_v12.pdf)
> that we've all signed.... I even went through the Logo Guidelines (
> http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/ccie/certified_ccies/logo_guidelines.html)
> and found absolutely no reference to how, if, or under what guidelines a
> CCIE may gain employment or income from a company.
>
> While I do think it's not cool if there are problems that a company can't
> figure out how many CCIE's to ACTUALLY EMPLOY, there is nothing I read that
> would come close to inferring that it's the CCIE's responsibility or problem
> in not meeting those requirements. So unless the CCIE commits fraud in the
> action, I'm not seeing how Cisco could take away the individual's
> certification. It seems like a method of fishing for the partners (which may
> be ok, although I'd expect they would/should be punished approriately!).
>
> Can someone point me to another agreement that we all signed or agreed to
> which does limit the nature of business practices? Apparently I've
> forgotten about it, if it exists, and can't seem to find it on Cisco's web
> site or through the Almighty, Omniscient Google. ;)
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> Darby Weaver wrote:
>
> Actually - it is pretty close to impossible for a CCIE's number to be used
> without his or her knowledge and consent.
>
> So again, the problem and the punishment fall on the CCIE.
>
> The CCIE cannot plead ignorance. The CCIE agreed to the agreement as a part
> of accepting to 1. take the lab 2. agreement with the terms and
> stipulations.
>
> If a CCIE's digits are being used without his or her consent - this would be
> interesting since a partner or other person would wither have to be very
> intimate with the CCIE or have totally hacked the CCIE's profile.
>
> Either way the CCIE is an investment.
>
> If a person is so careless to let it simply get stripped in such a manner,
> then the CCIE probably is not using it anyway.
>
> CCIE's are not the lowest people on the food chain when it comes to
> intellect and ability to research so....
>
> Most CCIE's would be hard to take advantage of in this manner.
>
> Therefore if one's digits are being used, it would be reasonable to safely
> assume the CCIE had knowledge of what had transpired.
>
> And when found out would totally understand the consequences of his or her
> actions.
>
> Agreed?
>
> Not many naive CCIE's out there - If there are - how did they pass the lab
> anyway...
>
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 10:06 AM, NN Kumar <nagendra.cisco_at_gmail.com> <nagendra.cisco_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Darby,
>
> Your point is right when a CCIE is associating his ID with a partner whom
> with he is not working. I agree, the candidate deserves the punishment of
> being stripped with his certificates.
>
> But my concern is, If a partner goes for audit in some country showing few
> CCIEs are associated in that country where in real, those CCIEs neither have
> work permit for those country nor living in that country, but working as
> part of the company in different country. How will the candiate knows that
> his ID is misused.?.
>
> Regards,
> Nag
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Darby Weaver <ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com> <ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> I am still not sure whether their is any "law" or "legal" repurcussion.
>
> I candidate signs an agreement saying how he or whe will use the
> certifciation within specifications as specified by Cisco.
>
> If the candidate, the ONLY person who can assign his/her own number to a
> partner, does so... then the partner is not at fault because the CCIE was an
> idiot.
>
> The CCIE when caught up with either in the current year or in later years
> as deemed appropriate by Cisco will be stripped of a CCIE and probably for
> life.
>
> The CCIE and not the parter, has made a conscious decision to DEVALUE the
> CCIE progam. It is the CCIE who will always suffer the AXE, not the
> partner.
>
> The partner will have to find another CCIE else lose the partnership.
>
> The CCIE will have to find another certification program to defraud.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 5:33 AM, NN Kumar <nagendra.cisco_at_gmail.com> <nagendra.cisco_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I think it is not fair to strip an individual's certificates when the
> employer is trying to cheat Cisco. Normally, the company will not let know
> the individual where his certificate is being associated. In such case, how
> would any one get to know there is something illegal association happening
> with his certificate?.
>
> Is there any cisco mail list where we can confirm if this is legal or
> not?.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Darby Weaver <ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com> <ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> I think it is not so much a legal issue.
>
> Cisco would probably just strip the person's certifications.
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Cisco League <ciscoleague_at_googlemail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> What if you are asked to attach your CCO to a country where you are
>
>
> not
>
>
> employed.
> Example: You work for a company having offices in countries A,B and C.
>
>
> The
>
>
> company has a partner status in country A and B but not C. You are
>
>
> employed
>
>
> in country A but asked to attach your CCO to country C thus helping
>
>
> the
>
>
> company to get partner status in country C. Now where does the company
>
>
> and
>
>
> the candidate stand with respect to legal aspect and possible
>
>
> repercussions
>
>
> to the candidate if this comes to notice of Cisco.
> To my understanding you should be employed in the country where your
>
>
> CCIE
>
>
> numbers is being used to gain partner status.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Darby Weaver <ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com> <ccie.weaver_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Considering there is a process to become a partner - I don't think
>
>
> it is
>
>
> easy to become registered with a Partner without one's own notice.
>
>
> Unless
>
>
> they have all your usernames, passwords, CSCO Number/Password, etc.
>
>
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>
>
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Received on Mon Jul 27 2009 - 14:22:39 ART