Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking

My guess is that someone has been burned one too many times and takes it
personally. See, I don't distinguish between the "mips & olive" folks
and those who happen to have real routers. IMHO we're just as likely to
have people who know "just enough" to squeak through and don't care
about anything more with either path.

I do agree that if your ONLY experience is with simulated routers then
you have a long way to go with the nuances of a real router (finding the
console port from a hole in the ground, or whatever other quip you'd
like) but working on a rack of real equipment that someone else setup
and you access via a terminal server really doesn't afford any separate
or enhanced experience either!

Any certification is a starting point that proclaims to the world "I am
MINIMALLY certified to be called (insert name here)". What you do with
it afterwards is entirely a personal thing.

I know a great person from many years ago who worked and worked and
worked on developing vLab materials. Practiced their way towards CCIE
with all that hard work and (back in the day with "different" style
labs) failed the lab the first time due to some physical/cable-related
issues that had not been "experienced" at that point. Did it set them
back? Nope. Just a new goal, a new area to conquer. Fixed it, learned
it, experienced it and went back to obtain the CCIE a short time
thereafter. That was all way before Dynamips.

Do I think anything less of them because of that method? Absolutely
not. In fact I more applaud the drive to work that way, find the gap
and fix it! But that's just my opinion. And I've been burned plenty of
times by people claiming to have more experience than they do. But
there's nothing in common with those folks other than the lack of desire
to better themselves and a propensity for self-fulfilling marketing
hype. I despise stupidity in all flavors. (Equal Opportunity Abuse)

;)

*Scott Morris*, CCIE/x4/ (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,

JNCIE-M #153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.

JNCI-M, JNCI-ER

evil_at_ine.com

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http://www.InternetworkExpert.com

Toll Free: 877-224-8987

Outside US: 775-826-4344

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Power corrupts.

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Luan Nguyen wrote:
> It depends on how you look at "experience". You are lucky because of the
> 360 program. For a lot of people at your company, they are brainwashed with
> the down look on vendors' certifications... "I know alot of people that do
> not have ANY certification and that I'd hire or lookup for directions rather
> than a 7xCCIE/JNCIE - those are just 4 or 5 letter words...etc". This is
> because the company doesn't want to pay for people to learn. So that people
> don't have options available to them and just let the company dictate all
> the terms and conditions...that's what I believe now.
> I worked for the same company like you for 8 years. If I didn't learn stuff
> on my own, those 8 years wouldn't stack up against 1 year of consulting
> work! I was in "engineering". Which means I had 3-6 months for a project
> and 2 Cisco SE and one Juniper SE sat next to me almost every day of the
> week. If you don't have the right attitude toward learning, you wouldn't
> learn anything at all. Not to say all people there are like that...but just
> for the sake of experience: there are people with 10+ years of experience
> you don't want to hire.
> And why don't those people if so qualified, just go and get certified? Too
> good for certs? Resentment because of unfairness?
> Another point I'd like to make is your attitude toward 'mips and the like.
> You are, like I was, probably blessed with racks and racks of equipments
> hence become ignorance with that VMWare/Dynamips can do. I unlike you,
> rather go with folks grew up on 'mips and olives than institutionalized
> company people.
> At Chesapeake Netcraftsmen, we ask a lot because we have a reputation to
> keep. Going through the interview process with Terry, Pete Welcher, Marty
> Adkins...etc, your 10+ years of experience along with other criteria better
> stack up: they can tell the different between CCIEs and experience!
>
> Regards,
>
> ------------------------------------
> Luan Nguyen
> Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC.
> [Web] http://www.netcraftsmen.net
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Persio Pucci
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:32 PM
> To: Cisco certification
> Subject: Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>
> Experience is overrated? Funny 'cause Chesapeake asks for 10 years
> experience minimal on their Principal Engineering opening (which also
> requires BS degree and a CCIE)... go figure.
> I mean I am no caveman from the 8" disk era (just teasing you guys), but I
> think experience is highly valuable, and I would value experience over any
>
> certification from any vendor, just like somebody mentioned before, I know a
> lot of people that do not have ANY certification and that I'd hire or lookup
> for directions rather than a 7xCCIE/JNCIE that grew up on 'mips and
> olives...
>
> ...and before the rocks start clogging my inbox, hey, that's just me and the
> way I think.
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:02 AM, Luan Nguyen <luan_at_netcraftsmen.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Sigh. Don't mind me...I am just talking like Joseph :)
>> Where I am, CCIE still, like you said commands respect, and it's really
>> hard
>> to find one - let alone a qualified one.
>> Even with the CCDE and CCA, there are nothing more special about them than
>> CCIE. One could read a bunch of books and RFCs and could very well pass
>> both. So it might be easier than CCIE, and require a lot less time...more
>> time with our kids!
>> I always believe experience is somewhat overrated...if you don't make an
>> effort of better yourself, then even with 10 years + working in an office
>> somewhere, you would still have an ID of 10T.
>> CCIE is definitely very nice to have now and well in the future. If not,
>>
> I
>
>> wouldn't be trying to get 4,5 of them now would I? :)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -------------------------------------
>> Luan Nguyen
>> Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC.
>> [Web] http://www.netcraftsmen.net
>> -------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gary Duncanson [mailto:gary.duncanson_at_googlemail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 3:48 PM
>> To: Luan Nguyen
>> Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>> Subject: Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
>> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>>
>> Luan,
>>
>> There are a lot of CCIE's out there that's for sure, but if they really
>>
> are
>
>> a dime a dozen then we should all just pack it in and do something much
>> more
>>
>> worthwhile like stop buying workbooks and spend more time with our kids. I
>> can only speak for my neck of the woods but the CCIE still commands
>>
> respect
>
>> and no increase in numbers has devalued it. It's also more than enough to
>> work towards for just about anyone particularly if their plate is already
>> full at work and at home. The certificate has matured and it's often seen
>> as a nice to have with 10 years experience these days. I still think the
>> CCIE is ligit even if you haven't got that experience. Still an
>> accomplishment. I recall a luminary on this list in late 2007 saying we
>> would be 30000 by end of 2008. It hasn't happened.
>>
>> Regards
>> Gary
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Luan Nguyen" <luan_at_netcraftsmen.net>
>> To: "'Joe Astorino'" <jastorino_at_ipexpert.com>; "'Gary Duncanson'"
>> <gary.duncanson_at_googlemail.com>
>> Cc: <ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:56 PM
>> Subject: RE: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
>> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>>
>>
>>
>>> CCIEs are a dime a dozen. Really.
>>> So I think it's a great idea to have this CCA cert. Make it legit. Give
>>> people something to work toward.
>>> IMHO, the jump from CCDE to CCA is not that hard. I am sure all 7 of
>>> those
>>> current CCDE guys once applied should be able to get it easy.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Luan Nguyen
>>> Chesapeake NetCraftsmen, LLC.
>>> [Web] http://www.netcraftsmen.net
>>> -----------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Joe
>>> Astorino
>>> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 12:40 PM
>>> To: 'Gary Duncanson'
>>> Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>>> Subject: RE: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
>>> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>>>
>>> Yeah really...I don't want to sound too upset here, but I feel like I
>>>
>> just
>>
>>> got kicked in the balls. How do the rest of you CCIEs out there feel
>>> about
>>> this announcement, since in my opinion we have all essentially been
>>> demoted?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Joe Astorino
>>> CCIE #24347 (R&S)
>>> Sr. Support Engineer - IPexpert, Inc.
>>> URL: http://www.IPexpert.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Gary Duncanson [mailto:gary.duncanson_at_googlemail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 12:38 PM
>>> To: Joe Astorino
>>> Cc: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>>> Subject: Re: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
>>> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>>>
>>> I give up too. I'm just way too busy working as a Network Designer to
>>>
>> keep
>>
>>> up with all that stuff!
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joe Astorino" <jastorino_at_ipexpert.com>
>>> To: "'Mike Kraus (mikraus)'" <mikraus_at_cisco.com>; <
>>>
>> ccielab_at_groupstudy.com>
>>
>>> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:28 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
>>> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I give up...
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Joe Astorino
>>>> CCIE #24347 (R&S)
>>>> Sr. Support Engineer - IPexpert, Inc.
>>>> URL: http://www.IPexpert.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nobody_at_groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody_at_groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>>>> Mike
>>>> Kraus (mikraus)
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:16 AM
>>>> To: ccielab_at_groupstudy.com
>>>> Subject: Cisco Raises the Bar with Highest-Level IT Networking
>>>> Certification: Cisco Certified Architect
>>>>
>>>> http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2009/prod_062909.html
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Received on Tue Jun 30 2009 - 10:06:40 ART