From: Gary Duncanson (garyduncanson@btinternet.com)
Date: Tue Oct 07 2008 - 11:33:16 ART
Giles. Good book. Everyone hates it :)
State machines are worth pouring over once in a while. If you work in an
environment where software is developed and tested you will be called upon
to do snoops at some stage, particularly if it's FX stuff etc. I have worked
with some developers who spent days pouring over snoops for customers and
who showed a healthy respect for networking professionals. They would have
been very perplexed if they discovered the network guy didn't understand
TCP.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darby Weaver" <ccie.weaver@gmail.com>
To: "Peter Chuba" <ptchuba@live.com>
Cc: "Radioactive Frog" <pbhatkoti@gmail.com>; "Wes Stevens"
<wrsteve33-gsccie@yahoo.com>; "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
> Not to get too deep into this...
>
> But if you read a lot of the questions that are asked on forums and even
> here on GS... you might get the impression that many ccie candidates
> either
> have not yet heard of the DOC CD, don't have good reading comprehension
> skills, or do not have a rack to practice on.
>
> What's worse is when people who have reportedly passed the CCIE Lab
> portion
> of the exam come back to ask some of those same questions from "a real
> world
> perspsective".
>
> This is sad and thankfully is not always the case, but sometimes it does
> happen, even here. All you have to do is browse the archives.
>
> Just remember the goal of the CCIE Program is not to mass-produce "CCIE's"
> it is instead to create a higher standard of a "quality network engineer"
> and if you are adhering to this philosophy then you are the real deal.
>
> Let's face it if you were asked to list the order of operations for:
>
> ARP
> Spanning-Tree
> RIP
> EIGRP
> OSPF
> BGP
> Multicast
> HSRP or VRRP or GLBP
> IP Routing
> etc.
>
> Any day of the week... Can you do it flawlessly? Sure any of the
> instructors can... :) or quasi-instructors.
>
> I would think that a CCIE who uses debug would be able to, especially if
> his/her track was RS.
>
> These are the little things that many people forget and trust me I've been
> there on interviews where I sometimes draw a blank, but in the course of
> conversation with your peers if you have some conveniently available,
> these
> discussions might come up on a break, over lunch, etc.
>
> It is helpful to have conversations like these. It's the joy of having a
> peer-group.
>
> Those without peers suffer because they might not have the benefit of
> having
> these discussions that help us bring out what we know or what we do not
> know
> or may even have forgotten.
>
> It almost makes you think that Roosevelt Giles should be required reading.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Peter Chuba <ptchuba@live.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe you should have given them the DocCD! :) hehehe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> Radioactive Frog
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 6:05 AM
>> To: Wes Stevens
>> Cc: Joseph Brunner; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>>
>> While you're on the topic, I would like to share you a real story of what
>> happend last week.
>>
>> My bI've interviewed 2 CCIE's R&S guys and they can't even get the 3
>> wayTCP
>> handshake TCP-seqence number right.
>> I through 5questions to see how they know their stuffs. They were pretty
>> basic CCNA level questions.
>> Those questions were not about the BGP or OSPF or any dynamics protocol
>> but
>> just real basic stuffs.
>>
>> another question was easy as a toddler could have done it but both CCIE
>> guys
>> (R&S ) couldn't do them right: the question was
>>
>> R1------r2-------r3----------r4
>>
>> as packet goes from r1 to r4 list the src/dst mac/ip address.
>>
>> Damn!! I have seen those paper CCIE now! so I told my boss that u want
>> them
>> to go to the customer site and then ringing to Cisco TAC from the site or
>> opening a case?
>>
>> It's shame, how people can get such a pretistiagous cert without knowing
>> the
>> stuffs.
>>
>>
>> On the other hand I interviewed another CCNA guy and he holds masters
>> degree. He was 200 times bettern than those CCIE guys. He answerdd all
>> questions which were really below CCNA level.
>>
>> So I said to my boss, hey, hire that CCNA guy. He would be the one who
>> will
>> do the job in the field and won't upset your customers.
>>
>> Just sharing real life experience with you guys!! may be someone else
>> have
>> done this before.
>>
>> -frog
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:46 AM, Wes Stevens
>> <wrsteve33-gsccie@yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>> > No myth they are doing interviews before the bejing lab. As to who
>> > would
>> > fail the interview that could pass the lab - is someone that memorized
>> > curent lab contents but did not have the experience to pass the
>> > interview
>> > process.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
>> > To: Wes Stevens <wrsteve33-gsccie@yahoo.com>; Darby Weaver <
>> > ccie.weaver@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 11:08:56 AM
>> > Subject: RE: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>> >
>> > There is no interview... that was a myth right????
>> >
>> > Who would legitimately pass the lab, and fail some interview (perhaps
>> > because they don't speak well or are nervous, then be denied a number)
>> >
>> > Lets leaving the trolling to the CCNP board!
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Wes
>> > Stevens
>> > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:49 AM
>> > To: Darby Weaver
>> > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>> >
>> > I was told the pass rate in bejing was extreamely high till the
>> > interview
>> > exam was implemented. Then it dropped back to the 20% range.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: Darby Weaver <ccie.weaver@gmail.com>
>> > To: Hobbs <deadheadblues@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: john matijevic <john.matijevic@gmail.com>; Tony Varriale
>> > <tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com>; Gary Duncanson <
>> garyduncanson@btinternet.com
>> > >;
>> > Cisco certification <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 9:07:43 PM
>> > Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>> >
>> > Not to belabor the point. Jared, Narbik and others were quiet eloquent
>> and
>> > to the point.
>> >
>> > Yes you can probably eventually pass the CCIE Lab on your own with
>> > little
>> > or
>> > no use of any workbooks.
>> >
>> > It was done in the past by a few people still here to tell the tale
>> today.
>> >
>> > Would you want to? Ouch! Maybe not.
>> >
>> > I've found the CCIE Lab Exam to be littered with lots of things that
>> > one
>> > can
>> > find on one's own but even reading the design guides a few times and
>> poring
>> > through the command references all the while typing at the CLI would
>> > just
>> > take an enormous amount of attention to detail - very much quality
>> > attention
>> > to details.
>> >
>> > Now one could pass just learning the specifics on putting making a pod
>> > work. I think this is possible. But I do not think it is the most
>> > practical way to go about it.
>> >
>> > There are a lot of very intelligent people on-list and off-list who
>> > take
>> > more than one trip to the CCIE Lunch Buffet. There's a reason. Maybe
>> > we
>> > are all deluded... or maybe we just did not pay enough attention the
>> first
>> > time.
>> >
>> > Today lots of bloggers are passing of their reported first attempt.
>> > I'd
>> > like to see if Cisco acknowledges this % of improvement. I've heard
>> > some
>> > people claim their first attempt and yet they say elsewhere they went
>> some
>> > years before, etc. Not quite the first attempt. :)
>> >
>> > It may be possible, but it may not be feasible.
>> >
>> > There's a certain school of thought that firmly is entrenched in the
>> > idea
>> > that this lab is very much an insider's exam.
>> >
>> > Knowing what I know, who I know and knew, and a few long years now with
>> > hindsight being 20/20, I'd say that while it may not be intended to
>> > have
>> > been an insider's exam, it may well have come to that.
>> >
>> > I do think that if one were quite experienced with a wide variety of
>> > technologies, that the lab difficulty diminishes with the inverse of
>> one's
>> > experiences with any given technology tested.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Hobbs <deadheadblues@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Ovais: Everybody's path IS different :)
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:01 PM, john matijevic <
>> john.matijevic@gmail.com
>> > > >wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hello Andrew,
>> > > > The author of the BGP and OSPF Command Reference books is name is
>> > > > Parkhurst,
>> > > > I had the pleasure of meeting him personally when I went for my
>> > > > lab.
>> > > > Sincerely,
>> > > > John
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Tony Varriale <
>> > > tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com
>> > > > >wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Comments inline.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
>> Behalf
>> > > Of
>> > > > > Gary
>> > > > > Duncanson
>> > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 3:24 PM
>> > > > > To: Ovais Iqbal
>> > > > > Cc: Cisco certification
>> > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >Vendor products are certainly popular, however it is something
>> > > > > >of
>> an
>> > > > urban
>> > > > > >myth that they are a relatively new phenomenon. Bootcamps and
>> > bootcamp
>> > > > > >labbooks have been around in one form or another for almost as
>> long
>> > as
>> > > > the
>> > > > > >CCIE track has been public. In other words they have been used
>> > > > > >to
>> a
>> > > > > greater
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >or lesser extent by just about every CCIE minted for years now.
>> > > Practice
>> > > > > >labs do not have to come from vendors though.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > This is obviously true for >= than the mid old-schoolers. Before
>> > > > > ccwhocamp,
>> > > > > the primary learning experience was formal training and/or OTJ.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The mid old-schoolers had 4 primary outlets: 1) ccwhocamp 2) own
>> > > > > experience/dev 3) groupstudy lab test answer posting 4) formal
>> > training
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I can assure you that #3 was a HUGE explosion in the CCIE process
>> > > during
>> > > > > this time frame.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >Cisco Press have done practice
>> > > > > >labs through books by Gorito and Duggan and Solie has practice
>> labs
>> > as
>> > > > > well.
>> > > > > >There was also 'fatkid' once upon a time but I digress :)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Cisco Press was a factor after mid old-school, IMHO.
>> > > > > w
>> > > > > Fatkid? Where is fatty (I forgot his name...darnit)? I'm very
>> aware
>> > > of
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > labs that were "offered". I'm also aware of what was available
>> > > > > on
>> > the
>> > > > lab
>> > > > > exam in 2000 (or before). And, I'm not the only one.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >In terms of challenge, regardless of the mix of materials you
>> > > > > >use,
>> > you
>> > > > > still
>> > > > > >have to put the necessary time in to cover the lab footprint and
>> get
>> > > to
>> > > > a
>> > > > > >point where you can recall the *right* solution to meet
>> > > > > >particular
>> > > > > >requirements.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'll disagree here. Any idea of why certain regions of the world
>> are
>> > > > > moving
>> > > > > towards an interview before you sit?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >Vendor materials are helpful but
>> > > > > >not a magic bullet. You have to make the effort. Many people
>> > > > > >have
>> > > > invested
>> > > > > >lots of money in multiple vendor sources and come unglued. A
>> vendor
>> > > > > product
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >wont give you determination or the inherent intellect to be able
>> to
>> > > > > >understand it all.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Obviously you have to have the capability. But, the amount of
>> > > > organization
>> > > > > and material offered today from CCIE vendors is absolutely
>> > > > > amazing.
>> > If
>> > > > you
>> > > > > consider price too, it's mind blowing.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >Cisco Press books and CCO offer an almost endless source of
>> > > > > >topologies you can lab up and play with at home and I recommend
>> you
>> > do
>> > > > so.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Sure, Cisco Press is definitely the pinnacle of Cisconess. But,
>> > > consider
>> > > > > this. There are
>> > > > > some CP books that just don't measure up...some are way outside
>> > > > > of
>> > the
>> > > > > acceptable variation.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Tv
>> > > > >
>> > > > > PS - Brad, no hard feelings on the whocamp stuff. I didn't
>> > > > > invent
>> > > that,
>> > > > I
>> > > > > just thought it was funny. :)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > From: "Ovais Iqbal" <ovais.iqball@yahoo.com>
>> > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>> > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 6:43 PM
>> > > > > Subject: CCIE, i wish to take a different path !
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Hi all, first of all i mean no disrespect to the gurus who are
>> > > helping
>> > > > > > CCIEs a
>> > > > > > lot, namely IE, IPexpert, Narbik and others,
>> > > > > > mostly when i read the success stories, one point is present in
>> all
>> > > of
>> > > > > > them, x
>> > > > > > months configuring the routers using x vendors workbooks, i
>> > > > > > just
>> > want
>> > > > to
>> > > > > > know
>> > > > > > something very simple, can some one pass the lab without these
>> > > > workbooks
>> > > > > ?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > can
>> > > > > > someone suggest me a path that i shall take if i dont want to
>> > > > > > use
>> > any
>> > > > of
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > vendors ? right now i think getting CCIE is not a challenge any
>> > more,
>> > > > no
>> > > > > > offense, but thats the truth, look around and you will see a
>> > > > > > hell
>> > lot
>> > > > > > increase
>> > > > > > in the production of CCIE as never seen before, i know more and
>> > more
>> > > > ppl
>> > > > > > are
>> > > > > > inclined towards it but i think the real challenge is to take
>> > > > > > the
>> > lab
>> > > > > > without
>> > > > > > using any of the workbooks, ( again no offense to the latest
>> CCIEs,
>> > i
>> > > > > > respect
>> > > > > > them all :-) ),
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Is there anyone who took the lab without using any vendors, can
>> > > he/she
>> > > > > > shed
>> > > > > > some light on his/her preparation ??
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
>> > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > _______________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
>> > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > _______________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
>> > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
>> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________________________________
>> > > Subscription information may be found at:
>> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >
>> >
>> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________________________________
>> > Subscription information may be found at:
>> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> >
>> >
>> > Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________________________________
>> > Subscription information may be found at:
>> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>>
>>
>> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>> Subscription information may be found at:
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>
> Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
Blogs and organic groups at http://www.ccie.net
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