From: keith tokash (ktokash@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Jun 09 2008 - 22:14:53 ART
Ug never say that. The second you name a number you're willing to take, your
interviewer just wrote down the highest number he's willing to offer you.
From there he's going to work down.
Go to the library, or amazon, or wherever, and grab "Negotiating Your Salary:
How to Make $1000 a Minute". Stupid title, it makes me think it's a scam, but
I had it recommended and it's an easy read that probably gained me about 5k at
my current gig just by not blurting anything out.
The information in this e-mail is intended for the
attention and use of the everyone in the world, or I wouldn't have sent it in
an unencrypted email. This message or any part thereof can and should be
disclosed, copied, distributed and retained by any person without
authorization from the addressee. Furthermore, I reserve the right to
disclose, copy, distribute and retain anything anyone sends *me* via email, up
to and including putting the exact text in a MySpace bulletin.
> From: r.s.cciestudy@gmail.com
> To: joe@affirmedsystems.com
> CC: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:43:05 -0700
>
> I did not read the job posting in detail. Obviously, I don't even make 90K
> as a brand new CCIE. Because my employer don't care what is CCIE or
> whatsoever. The original post was to see what is the lowest payrate I should
> accept without hurting the CCIE market value. So anyone would pay 90k for a
> brand new CCIE(R/S). Please unicast me. I am in it. :-)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> To: "'EDL'" <r.s.cciestudy@gmail.com>
> Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 10:28 AM
> Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
>
>
> > no... you guys don't pay rent? mortgage? gas? in LA?
> >
> > It's not a good offer... it's a slickster ex-mortgage executive trying to
> > break into IT consulting... 90k? helpdesk folks make that...
> >
> > I would rather be a life guard on la county beaches, make 30k but feel
> > good
> > about myself than know I'm being ripped off.
> >
> > -Joe
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > EDL
> > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 1:07 PM
> > To: Joseph Brunner
> > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >
> > Is it still a good offer in Los Angeles though ?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> > To: "'Gregory Gombas'" <ggombas@gmail.com>
> > Cc: "'Jonathan Greenwood II'" <gwood83@gmail.com>; "'Dane Newman'"
> > <dane.newman@gmail.com>; "'Brad Ellis'" <brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "'Chris
> > Gray'" <chris.gray@ozonenetworks.net>; "'Tony Varriale'"
> > <tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:57 AM
> > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >
> >
> >> LOL
> >> "90k - 120k"
> >>
> >> The economy must be worse than the actors on cnbc are harping about....
> >>
> >>
> >
http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/1/1/111
> >>
> >
f2df6b717ec01584155f190bb0ba0@endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=ccie&rating=99
> >>
> >> and this is a pretty intense job "50% travel" WTF...
> >>
> >> now tell me what the CCIE is worth...
> >>
> >> I made more than that when I was a CCNP 2 years ago...
> >>
> >> -Joe
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Gregory Gombas [mailto:ggombas@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:23 AM
> >> To: Joseph Brunner
> >> Cc: Jonathan Greenwood II; Dane Newman; Brad Ellis; Chris Gray; Tony
> >> Varriale; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >> Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>
> >> I don't care how big a cut the middleman is taking, as long as I get a
> >> fat paycheck at the end of the week!
> >>
> >> My point is, why bust my ass getting Master certified, when I can't
> >> find a company that will use even a tenth of my current skills?
> >>
> >> I often laugh at the laundry list of job requirements recruiters send
> >> me, knowing full well I wouldn't be working on half of those
> >> technologies....
> >>
> >> I'm curious - if I get master certification, will I then move up to
> >> creating vlans?
> >>
> >>
> >> On 6/4/08, Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
> >>> Middlemen (staff augmentation "Consulting" firms, head hunters,
> >> recruiters,
> >>> gold partners)
> >>>
> >>> All want to sell their clients the *best*. If this year's best is a guy
> >>> a
> >>> who is a "master architect" instead of a "internet expert", well all
the
> >>> better.
> >>>
> >>> >Many employers are quite content at paying a CCIE big bucks to assign
> >>> >IP addresses and configure switch ports all day!
> >>>
> >>> Learn how the game works.... someone is making money off you...
> >>> remember,
> >>> what Chris Rock said "Shaq is rich, the guy who signs Shaq's checks is
> >>> WEALTHY!!!"
> >>>
> >>> If you are the *direct* full time employee at a company disregard
> >>> this...
> >>> If you are making X per your, rest assured you are being billing out
> >>> 1.5x
> >> to
> >>> 5x (or more) per hour for your services....
> >>>
> >>> I met someone who worked for Uncle Sam. Some defense contractor staff
> >>> augmentation firm (like Lockheed Martin, etc) was billing him out at
> >>> $600
> >>> per hour!!!!
> >>>
> >>> So if a CCIE is sitting there changing speed and duplex on switch ports
> >> all
> >>> day, its so some guy can make his $$$ on his connections USING your
ass!
> >>>
> >>> Don't forget that.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Gregory Gombas [mailto:ggombas@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:43 AM
> >>> To: Jonathan Greenwood II
> >>> Cc: Joseph Brunner; Dane Newman; Brad Ellis; Chris Gray; Tony Varriale;
> >>> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>>
> >>> I'm kind of chiming in late here, but why would companies demand a
> >>> certification more elite than the CCIE when most companies I have
> >>> worked for don't even utilize a fraction of the CCIE's skill set?!?
> >>>
> >>> Many employers are quite content at paying a CCIE big bucks to assign
> >>> IP addresses and configure switch ports all day!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 6/3/08, Jonathan Greenwood II <gwood83@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > I don't think the CCIE Certification is anywhere on the ropes.
> >>> > There's
> >>> > roughly only 20K that's walked this planet to receive this
> >>> > certification
> >>> > since the the program started in the Mid 90's. That's still not
> >>> > enough Certified to go around the globe compared to the # of
Company's
> >> and
> >>> > networks that are out there.
> >>> >
> >>> > Eventually there will be alot of senior guys retiring within the next
> >>> 10yrs
> >>> > or so possibly unless they just can't give it up. But a new
> >>> > generation
> >>> will
> >>> > need to pickup where the pioneers have laid the ground work such as a
> >>> young
> >>> > buck like myself. I think the CCDE and CCMA are place for these
> >> veterans
> >>> to
> >>> > move into as the technology grows to my understanding of what Cisco
> >>> intends
> >>> > to call the "MASTER" vs "Expert"
> >>> >
> >>> > Jonathan
> >>> >
> >>> > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Joseph Brunner
> >>> > <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > No.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Bad idea...
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The cert is already distracted and diluted by all the others things
> >>> (CCDE,
> >>> > > CCMA, etc on the horizon).
> >>> > >
> >>> > > My clients all ask me "are you going to go for the CCDE". The
masses
> >> in
> >>> IT
> >>> > > know the bar has already been raised, and that the CCIE is now on
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > ropes...
> >>> > >
> >>> > > -Joe
> >>> > >
> >>> > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
Behalf
> >> Of
> >>> > > Dane
> >>> > > Newman
> >>> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:04 PM
> >>> > > To: Brad Ellis
> >>> > > Cc: Chris Gray; Tony Varriale; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Anyone else think they need to make the CCIE for the different
> >>> > > topics
> >> a
> >>> > > different?
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Such as..
> >>> > >
> >>> > > CCVE = Cisco Certified Voice Expert
> >>> > > CCSE = Cisco Certifed Security Expert
> >>> > > CCRSE = Cisco Certified Routing and Switching Expert
> >>> > >
> >>> > > ect...
> >>> > >
> >>> > > If you tell someone your a CCIE they kinda automatically assume
your
> >>> > > routing
> >>> > > and switching
> >>> > >
> >>> > > And yeah please update the voice lab as Brad said.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Brad Ellis <brad@ccbootcamp.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > I concur with that. We are looking to hire an additional CCIE
> >>> > > > Voice,
> >>> and
> >>> > > > it's taking a while to find one. It's pretty easy to get an R&S
> >>> > > > CCIE
> >>> > > > engineer these days (from a staffing perspective). R&S CCIE is
> >>> > > > still
> >>> in
> >>> > > > great demand, but voice is in even more demand - especially due
to
> >> the
> >>> > > > number of Voice CCIEs that are out there. The only issue I have
> >>> > > > with
> >>> the
> >>> > > > whole Voice CCIE track, is that Cisco is still testing on 4.1.
All
> >> of
> >>> > > > our deployments these days are 6.1. Anyone who >HAD< a 4.1, has
> >>> already
> >>> > > > upgraded to 5.x or 6.x. I don't have any customers who are
running
> >>> 4.1.
> >>> > > > Hopefully the CCIE lab exam will soon change to reflect
> >>> > > > this...BEN?
> >> :)
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > thanks,
> >>> > > > Brad Ellis
> >>> > > > CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> >>> > > > CCSI# 30482
> >>> > > > CEO / President
> >>> > > > CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> >>> > > > Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> >>> > > > Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> >>> > > > International: +1-702-968-5100
> >>> > > > Sydney, Australia: +61 2 8080 2725
> >>> > > > Toronto, Canada: +1-416-238-0441
> >>> > > > Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> >>> > > > FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> >>> > > > YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> >>> > > > Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >>> > > > Behalf
> >>> Of
> >>> > > > Chris Gray
> >>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:27 AM
> >>> > > > To: 'Tony Varriale'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Its not that much better here in the UK. I have years of
> >>> > > > experience
> >>> > > > (Started
> >>> > > > for MFS Datanet in 1994). Have worked on stacks of kit most of
> >>> > > > which
> >>> has
> >>> > > > gone (netedge, Xyplex, Bay, GDC, Cascade, Wellfleet, Stratacom)
> >> which
> >>> is
> >>> > > > why
> >>> > > > I am working for this CCIE. Need to keep up with Cisco.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > But in the UK, its hard to get a job in engineering. Pre sales
is
> >> not
> >>> a
> >>> > > > problem, but if you want to walk into an MPLS engineering role,
at
> >>> > > > a
> >>> > > > decent
> >>> > > > salary rate (#75K and above) its almost impossible.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > I engaged a silver partner a few weeks back, they are offering
> >>> > > > #65K
> >>> for
> >>> > > > a
> >>> > > > pre sales role, but must have CCIE.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > I had a recruitment 'consultant' tell me that CCIE R&S is common,
> >>> > > > it
> >> s
> >>> > > > the
> >>> > > > CCIE VOICE I should have. Do these people realise what we put
> >>> ourselves
> >>> > > > through to get this certification? I bet it s a dam site more
than
> >>> they
> >>> > > > go
> >>> > > > through to become a self labelled 'consultant'!
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Anyway, Keep up the good work!
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > KRIZ
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >>> > > > Behalf
> >>> Of
> >>> > > > Tony
> >>> > > > Varriale
> >>> > > > Sent: 03 June 2008 16:06
> >>> > > > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > I would rather be in OH at that pay rate. $110k in LA is tough.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Tony
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >>> > > > Behalf
> >>> Of
> >>> > > > Morris, Jason L.
> >>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:43 AM
> >>> > > > To: R.S. CCIE; Joseph Brunner
> >>> > > > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > I have no idea what the market in LA is like. I live in
> >>> > > > Cincinnati
> >>> and
> >>> > > > was just looking at a 'cost of living calculator', the numbers
you
> >>> guys
> >>> > > > are throwing out are way low for the market here. According to
> >>> > > > CNN
> >>> > > > Money 110k in LA is worth just a little over 67k in Cincinnati.
> >> I've
> >>> > > > got 2 guys on my team who just got their CCNA since joining the
> >>> company
> >>> > > > that are making that.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Is the market in LA really that bad? If so I'll never bitch
about
> >>> being
> >>> > > > stuck in the Midwest ever again.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Jason Morris
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >>> > > > Behalf
> >>> Of
> >>> > > > R.S. CCIE
> >>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:51 AM
> >>> > > > To: Joseph Brunner
> >>> > > > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > > Subject: Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > :-(
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > That really hurts ...... Ouch!
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Joseph Brunner
> >>> > > > <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> >>> > > > wrote:
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > > You don't find a job at all
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Walk through a big data center all those cabinets/cages there
> >> are
> >>> a
> >>> > > > lot
> >>> > > > > of smart hungry tech guys out of work right now
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > You are not alone .
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > -Joe
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > ------------------------------
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > *From:* R.S. CCIE [mailto:r.s.cciestudy@gmail.com]
> >>> > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:34 AM
> >>> > > > > *To:* Tony Schaffran (GS)
> >>> > > > > *Cc:* Joseph Brunner; Roger; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > > > *Subject:* Re: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > What is the worst case scenario though? That is what I like to
> >> know
> >>> > > > .....
> >>> > > > > :-)
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Tony Schaffran (GS) <
> >>> > > > > groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com> wrote:
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > A CCIE with no experience, you would be lucky to get $90K
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Tony Schaffran
> >>> > > > > Network Analyst
> >>> > > > > CCIE #11071
> >>> > > > > CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
> >>> > > > > NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > www.cconlinelabs.com
> >>> > > > > Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack rentals.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >> Behalf
> >>> > > > Of
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Joseph Brunner
> >>> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:35 AM
> >>> > > > > To: 'Roger'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I was joking friend...
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > So we do agree!
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I just finished a 28 hour marathon network overhaul and I'm
home
> >>> > > > firing up
> >>> > > > > dynamips. Don't let your skill set get weakened, even for a few
> >>> hours
> >>> > > > to
> >>> > > > > sleep.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I was offered a whopping $112k a year for my Jedi skills in NYC
> >> just
> >>> > > > the
> >>> > > > > other day... the economy is $@&ked! That was at a fortune 25
> >>> > > > company!!!!
> >>> > > > > There are like 1000's of CCIE's out of work... Citigroup, Bear
> >>> Sterns,
> >>> > > > > BofA,
> >>> > > > > Wachovia, Merrill Lynch, Morgan, Hedge funds, these guys are
> >>> bleeding
> >>> > > > cash
> >>> > > > > and are dropping IT engineering staff like there's no
> >>> > > > > tomorrow...
> >>> lots
> >>> > > > of
> >>> > > > > smart guys with no dojo looking for work right now...
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > That's about $2800 every two weeks after taxes... that MIGHT
> >>> > > > > fill
> >> up
> >>> > > > my gas
> >>> > > > > tank, and put a few groceries in my house... LOL
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Guys, hit the books harder than ever if you want to swim
through
> >> the
> >>> > > > next 3
> >>> > > > > or 5 years...
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > -Joe
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >> Behalf
> >>> > > > Of
> >>> > > > > Roger
> >>> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:05 AM
> >>> > > > > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>> > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Man I hate to disagree with Joseph (and I don't all that often)
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > If you are brand new CCIE, and I see that you have less then 5
> >> years
> >>> > > > exp
> >>> > > > > in large-mid size networks I won't pay better then 110-125
(with
> >>> > > > bonus).
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I have seen about 3-7 CCIE's recent in about the high 18xxx's &
> >>> > > > 19xxx's
> >>> > > > > they've been able to answer CCIE questions however their real
> >> world
> >>> > > > > problem solving has made me offer them much less. Reason: if
> >>> > > > > they
> >> do
> >>> > > > not
> >>> > > > > have a wide breath of experience (2 of them never worked on
> >> Cat65XX)
> >>> > > > > more time in training and supporting them will be required from
> >>> > > > team/me.
> >>> > > > > We had one that said he had worked a lot of 6509's and was a
> >>> > > > > nice
> >>> guy
> >>> > > > so
> >>> > > > > I took him to our server room as part of the interview and
asked
> >> him
> >>> > > > > about some of the gear as I pointed it out. He couldn't tell me
> >>> which
> >>> > > > > blade in the 6509 was the sup.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > HOWEVER if you are going to work for a cisco vendor (gold
silver
> >>> etc)
> >>> > > > or
> >>> > > > > you have 6+ years, then Joseph is about right, well I hope he
is
> >> =)
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Good Journey!
> >>> > > > > Roger
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> >>> > > > > > Subject: RE: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > > > > From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> >>> > > > > > Date: Sat, May 31, 2008 10:49 pm
> >>> > > > > > To: "'R.S. CCIE'" <r.s.cciestudy@gmail.com>, "'Cisco
> >>> certification'"
> >>> > > > > > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > > $140,000 with 20% bonus in writing.
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > > Anything less and I'll say lance Armstrong has more cajones
> >>> > > > > > than
> >>> > > > you, LA
> >>> > > > > > cabronito Vato!
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> > > > Of
> >>> > > > > R.S.
> >>> > > > > > CCIE
> >>> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:04 AM
> >>> > > > > > To: Cisco certification
> >>> > > > > > Subject: CCIE payrate in Los Angeles
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > > What would be the minimum offer (as an employee) should a
> >>> > > > > > brand
> >>> new
> >>> > > > CCIE
> >>> > > > > > accept without hurting the CCIE prestige ? And this brand new
> >> CCIE
> >>> > > > only
> >>> > > > > has
> >>> > > > > > experience on 2600, 3800 routers.....etc. No experience on
> >>> > > > > > those
> >>> BIG
> >>> > > > > horses.
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >> _______________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > Subscription information may be found at:
> >>> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue Jul 01 2008 - 06:23:21 ART