From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Sat Mar 15 2008 - 21:50:00 ARST
On the flip side to that logic, I would say that there are a good number of
people (can anyone name any political families?) that have degrees from very
good universities and are arguably less than stellar in their aptitude.
Soooo... Ummmm... I'm thinking that may sound good, but isn't necessarily
true. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of nrf
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:49 PM
To: rodrigo.gutierrez@nsn.com; darklordrouter@gmail.com;
yemi.salau@siemens.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; comserv@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: How to Become a CCIE v2
Well, first off, nobody is denying that there are plenty of mediocre MBA
degrees out there. In fact, frankly, most are. Hence, I am not surprised
in the least to find some MBA's who indeed make less than some CCIE's.
But you guys are missing a key aspect of the MBA (or any degree for that
matter). It is not just a simple matter of the degree proving that you
"... were able to show up for class and aren't a complete idiot" or that
"Half the battle is just showing up for class or doing that homework (busy
work)." Not at all.
The one aspect that you guys have missed is that to get a degree, YOU FIRST
HAVE TO GET ADMITTED. Frankly, for any decent school, this is the hardest
step by far. You can't just wake up one fine day and decide that you want
to start working on your MBA from, say, Stanford and then simply sign up.
You have to first get admitted to Stanford, and only 6% of applicants do.
Furthermore, plenty of people don't even bother to apply because they know
they won't get in. (For example, if you have terrible undergraduate grades
and GMAT scores, and mediocre job experience, you know you're not going to
get admitted, so why even waste money in applying?}. And certainly, you
can't just keep applying over and over again every month until you finally
get in.
Look, like it or not, what the degree actually proves above all is that you
were good enough to GET IN, as well as that you were also good enough to
actually complete the work. Whereas the CCIE only proves that, on one single
day, out of an unknown and possibly large number of attempts, you were able
to successfully answer enough lab questions to score an 80.
----- Original Message -----
From: <rodrigo.gutierrez@nsn.com>
To: <darklordrouter@gmail.com>; <yemi.salau@siemens.com>
Cc: <noglikirf@hotmail.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>;
<comserv@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: How to Become a CCIE v2
> Agreed dude.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>>Of ext darth router
>>Sent: Martes, 11 de Marzo de 2008 11:01 a.m.
>>To: Salau, Yemi
>>Cc: nrf; groupstudy; comserv@groupstudy.com
>>Subject: Re: How to Become a CCIE v2
>>
>>CCIE is a higher level knob pushing monkey :)
>>
>>Honestly guys, my buddy friend is an MBA, and makes significantly less
>>than I do. An MBA doesn't necessarily land you an executive job. In
>>fact, this might be a stretch, but degrees to me are pretty easy, they
>>just take time and busy work, even an MBA. Half the battle is just
>>showing up for class or doing that homework (busy work).
>>The CCIE is by far the hardest test I've ever done. I'm not dogging
>>traditional school. I have a bachelors, but they are two completely
>>different animals. The CCIE to me was an instant shortcut into a
>>better pay grade.
>>The degree, with exceptions, that just shows people you were able to
>>show up for class and aren't a complete idiot :P
>>
>>
>>On 3/11/08, Salau, Yemi <yemi.salau@siemens.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Wise talks NRF
>>>
>>> At the end of the day, we all need to ask ourselves why we're going
>>> for this CCIE of a thing. There is no comparison though with
>>> traditional qualifications ie. Phd or even Professorship. I've met
>>> people in my career who knows a lot more than most
>>CCIEs.... I'm yet
>>> to meet people who knows that Professors at their special
>>areas of interest.
>>>
>>> What I'm saying is, the Phd & Prof. World is very parallel
>>to the CCIE
>>> side of things, I'm speaking as a CCIE who is one the other side of
>>> the road ... So I know what I'm saying. People do CCIEs just for the
>>> fun of it, others to guarantee job interviews, some more
>>money, others
>>> more respect. But CCIE itself is just the beginning for some people.
>>> Whichever way you see CCIE as, it's still very well respected in the
>>> IT industry... And with it comes greater responsibility... However
>>> CCIEs hardly invent anything in life ... Most Professors do!
>>>
>>> I'm not saying CCIE is lower than Phd or otherwise, from my
>>own first
>>> hand perspective, I think they are 2 parallel planes that can't
>>> intersect on a common ground. Having said that, I still find it hard
>>> to believe that there are Phd holders from MIT in the unemployment
>>> industry.
>>>
>>> Many Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> Yemi Salau
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>>> Of
>>>
>>> nrf
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:37 AM
>>> Cc: 'groupstudy'; comserv@groupstudy.com
>>> Subject: Re: How to Become a CCIE v2
>>>
>>>
>>> > Many managers have no idea how tough the CCIE is. But then again,
>>> > can
>>> you
>>> > blame them? Lately there seems to be an outpouring of posts on
>>> > people
>>>
>>> > passing
>>> > the CCIE in 3, or even 2 months. How many people have completed
>>> > their Master's degrees in two months? If it was accredited, I'll
>>> > bet the
>>> answer
>>> > is
>>> > 0.
>>>
>>> Actually, not only do I completely agree with you here, I'll
>>not only
>>> call you, but also raise you. While managers may not have any idea
>>> how tough the CCIE is, well, let's be honest guys, how tough is it
>>> really, relative to
>>>
>>> other credentials one could earn? Few if any people can earn a real
>>> (that is, an accredited) master's degree in just 2-3 months, and
>>> certainly earning a Phd in such a time frame is infeasible for all
>>> except supra-geniuses, as
>>> even Einstein needed over a year to be awarded his. Heck, since the
>>> MIT
>>> PhD was brought up, I know quite a few people who have been
>>working on
>>> their PhD's at MIT for over 6 years full-time who still haven't
>>> completed the degree. To repeat, that's working on the degree
>>> FULL-TIME, which means they don't have a job (in other
>>words, earning
>>> the degree IS their job).
>>> Honestly, how many of us would really need 6 years of
>>full-time study
>>> in
>>>
>>> order to pass the CCIE? Hence, while I realize that this is a
>>> discordant
>>> position to take, the fact is, the CCIE isn't that weighty of an
>>> accomplishment, relative to some of those other credentials.
>>>
>>> I've said it before, I'll say it again: what severely weakens the
>>> difficulty of the CCIE is the fact that you can simply take it over
>>> and over and over again until you finally pass. Sure, it
>>costs money,
>>> sure it takes time, but nevertheless you can just keep
>>taking the test
>>> repeatedly until you finally get the particular set of
>>questions that
>>> you know well.
>>> That
>>> sort of process has no parallel in those other credential processes.
>>> For
>>> example, take the PhD qualification exams (which don't allow you to
>>> graduate, but merely allow you to advance to candidacy
>>status). Almost
>>> all
>>> respectable programs have a finite limit to the number of times you
>>> can fail those exams, usually being 2-3 attempts, with some (harsh)
>>> programs allowing you only ONE attempt. Once you exceed that
>>> threshold, that's it: the game is over and you're officially and
>>> irrevocably expelled from the program.
>>>
>>> Similarly, once you're a candidate who has submitted your
>>thesis, you
>>> can't just keep failing your oral defense over and over again until
>>> you finally succeed. After a certain number of defense
>>failures, your
>>> candidacy will be revoked. But a CCIE "candidate" can repeatedly
>>> attempt the test with impunity.
>>>
>>>
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>
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