From: Scott Morris (smorris@ipexpert.com)
Date: Mon Mar 10 2008 - 01:35:37 ARST
I'm not sure that's quite the proper stance... You should still own an IOS
version. Nobody says you should blatantly steal/pirate/copy something for
free. But there are areas of the adacdemic Fair Use sections in various
laws that may provide leeway of "alternate uses" for licenses you already
own.
So hopefully you have at least one real router of said "flavor" for the IOS
you are playing with.
When dealing in potential grey areas, it's always good to have SOME
defendable position. "oops" usually doesn't cut it! :)
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M
#153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.810.454.0130
http://www.ipexpert.com
_____
From: Isabella Figarella [mailto:gigi.ccie@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:32 PM
To: Scott Vermillion
Cc: smorris@ipexpert.com; Hoogen; Carl J Yost Jr; Cisco certification
Subject: Re: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on Dynamips.
That's right why should students have to pay for the ios if cisco is making
money from us. We are the ones who have to study and if we do cisco make
even more money.
On 3/9/08, Scott Vermillion <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
Hehe. Well let's just say that if Cisco made a direct statement against the
use of Dynamips for study (either through some public release on their
website or directly via my own personal inbox, which in both cases they have
thus far pointedly avoided undertaking), I'd drop it like a hot rock, as no
doubt would most. But unless provoked into doing so, I can't see Cisco
following this path. I think I've made a reasonable case as to why that is,
and that has to do with what it always has to do with: the bottom line. And
in this specific case, the bottom line is served handsomely for Cisco. A
zero-cost means of acquiring a larger, more educated/qualified/certified
work/sales force comes along just ever so often. What's not to like??
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 9:11 PM
To: 'Hoogen'; 'Scott Vermillion'
Cc: 'Carl J Yost Jr'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on Dynamips.
I know this may be belaboring the obvious... but whether Cisco has an
internal emulation tool or not is irrelevant. If they OWN the license, it's
kinda hard to be in violation of it no matter what they do internally. :)
Now, I'd find it hard to believe that they would spend a lot of time
targeting the people who are legitimately studying with some legal action,
but one never knows.
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M
#153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.810.454.0130
http://www.ipexpert.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Hoogen
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:56 PM
To: Scott Vermillion
Cc: Carl J Yost Jr; Cisco certification
Subject: Re: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on Dynamips.
Just another thing here, Cisco itself has some internal simulator stuff.
Just like dynamips, people use it for studies since its suppose to be really
good better than dynamips. So I am sure as long as it is educational it
shouldn't be a problem. I don't get it why are we even talking about this, I
am not going to stop using it.
-Hoogen
On 3/9/08, Scott Vermillion <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
>
> Oh LOL Carl, now *that's* funny - good catch man! A completely
> unbiased actor in all of this business here, eh? OMG!!??
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl J Yost Jr [mailto:yostc@sunpenguin.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 5:58 PM
> To: Scott Vermillion
> Cc: 'Cisco certification'
> Subject: Re: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on Dynamips.
>
> "Boson" Michael asking Cisco. I wonder why a "Boson" employee would
> ask.. I would rather see countless people learning on Dynamips than a
> "Boson" simulator...
>
>
> Also I use both, I have Scott's exact setup at home and a real rack at
> work. I can never tell the two apart...
>
>
> And who cares about mcseworld ?
>
> Scott Vermillion wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > Much as I hate being dragged down into this discussion, I'm
> > compelled to answer this one with a little common sense, which will
> > typically - and
> most
> > certainly is in this specific case - be lacking from such discussions.
> >
> > Scenario 1:
> >
> > I go buy a Mac Mini, a mess of USB-Ethernet converters, and a few
> > USB
> hubs.
> > I install Dynamips and load a copy of IOS. I then repeat this
> > process
> 100
> > times. I take out a full-page ad in the local paper admonishing
> businesses
> > not to waste their hard-earned cash on that Cisco junk. I promise
> > to
> come
> > deploy my version of a router running full Cisco IOS instead of true
> Cisco
> > hardware routers.
> >
> > Scenario 2:
> >
> > I go buy a Mac Mini, a mess of USB-Ethernet converters, and a few
> > USB
> hubs.
> > I install Dynamips and load a copy of IOS. I use this to study and to
> > learn. I earn my CCIE. I use my newfound status and influence in
> > the marketplace to move millions of dollars of Cisco product. I
> > never once
> use
> > my lab in a production environment and I never profit from any IOS
> feature
> > or capability (in other words, not a single packet of true payload
> > is
> ever
> > moved through my lab - just a bunch of pings, hellos, and neighbor
> > establishment and maintenance stuff). Cisco has never lost one
> > dollar
> from
> > my "illegal use" of IOS. On the other hand, they have profited
> > wildly
> from
> > the hundreds of Cisco solutions I deploy over the long course of my
> career.
> >
> > It comes down to a common sense interpretation of the word "use."
> >
> > And if you finally achieve your long-standing goal of forcing the
> > hand
> of
> > the Cisco legal team to issue some statement against Dynamips, what
> > have
> you
> > accomplished Darby? For one thing, you've earned yourself the wrath
> > of
> the
> > planet over. You've perhaps prevented thousands of people from
> > earning their CCIEs. You've forced people back to spending their
> > lab money on
> old
> > power-hungry junk and in doing so increased global warming,
> single-handedly
> > raising ocean levels by a full meter, forcing millions from their homes.
> > Plague is visited upon the earth. Humanity slowly fades into the
> > annals
> of
> > the planet's long history. The dinosaurs return to freely roam the
> land.
> > And so until the next big impact from space, we're screwed.
> >
> > WHAT IS YOU FRIGGIN PROBLEM DUDE?
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Darby Weaver [mailto:darbyweaver@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:49 PM
> > To: Joseph Brunner; 'Scott Vermillion'; 'Cisco certification'
> > Subject: OT: RE: Dynagen folks... Here is Cisco's Direct Answer on
> Dynamips.
> >
> > Note: Off-topic
> >
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > The only problem with Dynamips/Dynagen that I can see
> > are:
> >
> > 1. If you are unfamiliar with "issues" on real gear, then your
> > "ghosts" might leave you wondering if things are what they should
> > be... or not?
> >
> > 2. There is Cisco IOS Licensing issue:
> >
> > Read this:
> >
> http://www.mcseworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10039
<http://www.mcseworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10039&highlight=dynam>
&highlight=dynam
> ips
> >
> > Here is the actual meaningful text that adds the clarification
> > anyone may need:
> >
> > I have received confirmation from Cisco regarding
> > Dynamips: the IOS is not legal to use outside of Cisco's hardware
> > chassis.
> >
> > Contents of e-mail:
> >
> >
> > Quote:
> > I am increasingly being asked by members on several certification
> > forums whether it is OK to use Cisco's IOS using a Dynamips
> > simulator (link:
> > http://www.ipflow.utc.fr/index.php/Cisco_7200_Simulator).
> > Therefore, I'd like some clarification as to whether using Cisco's
> > IOS on Dynamips is allowable according to Cisco's licensing terms. I
> > don't believe it is allowable, but I would like confirmation one way
> > or the other.
> >
> > From
> > http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...08088e31f.html:
> >
> >
> > Quote:
> > License. Conditioned upon compliance with the terms and conditions
> > of this Agreement, Cisco Systems, Inc.
> > or its subsidiary licensing the Software instead of Cisco Systems,
> > Inc. ("Cisco"), grants to Customer a nonexclusive and
> > nontransferable license to use for Customer's internal business
> > purposes the Software and the Documentation for which Customer has
> > paid the required license fees. "Documentation" means written
> > information (whether contained in user or technical manuals,
> > training materials, specifications or
> > otherwise) specifically pertaining to the Software and made
> > available by Cisco with the Software in any manner (including on
> > CD-Rom, or on-line).
> >
> > Customer's license to use the Software shall be limited to, and
> > Customer shall not use the Software in excess of, a single hardware
> > chassis or card or that number of agent(s), concurrent users,
> > sessions, IP addresses, port(s), seat(s), server(s) or site(s), as
> > set forth in the applicable Purchase Order which has been accepted
> > by Cisco and for which Customer has paid to Cisco the required
> > license fee.
> >
> > Unless otherwise expressly provided in the Documentation, Customer
> > shall use the Software solely as embedded in, for execution on, or
> > (where the applicable documentation permits installation on
> > non-Cisco equipment) for communication with Cisco equipment owned or
> > leased by Customer and used for Customer's internal business
> > purposes.
> >
> > End of Quote from Cisco.
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Therefore, it doesn't look like the Cisco IOS can be used outside of
> > Cisco's hardware chassis, even within a software-based simulator. Am
> > I correct in this? Or is this sort of use allowable by Cisco?
> >
> > I thank you for checking into this matter.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Michael Aldridge
> > Senior Content Developer
> > Boson Software, LLC
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Things that can go wrong with the real gear, and only with the real
> >> gear...
> >>
> >> Will burn your time bad in the real lab to try and fix (loops, bad
> >> interfaces, two routers talking together through 3 switches over a
> >> dot1q-tunnel, etc)
> >>
> >> I'm not saying you can't learn the technologies on the dynagen, but
> >> I'm saying spend some practices sessions on a full 10 piece rack.
> >>
> >> That's all
> >>
> >> Happy Dynagening...
> >>
> >> -Joe
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> >> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Scott Vermillion
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 12:38 AM
> >> To: Cisco certification
> >> Subject: RE: Dynagen folks...
> >>
> >> I am a true Dynamips/Dynagen believer and have built my lab prep
> >> "rack"
> >> around it/them. Please explain, Joe, how I will fail the CCIE lab
> >> because of it ("nothing else can prepare you for the real thing")?
> >> What is it about that "feel" that makes the difference (can you go
> >> "feel" the routers during the practical? Can you "feel" the
> >> routers in that remote rack?)?
> >>
> >> This has the potential to become the next "CCIE vs.
> >> college degree"
> >> topic, me thinks. It's probably not a very good use of bandwidth,
> >> come to think of it LOL, but I can't resist asking you to elaborate
> >> on these seemingly unfounded generalizations. I would prefer that
> >> you answer with "I have hardware routers and I also run
> >> Dynamips/Dynagen on a machine of sufficient horsepower, and here
> >> are the things I can do on the former that I can't do on the latter
> >> *that matter in the
> >> lab* (i.e. don't tell
> >> me about toggling the power switch...yawn...you can't do that in
> >> the lab anyway by all accounts I've ever heard).
> >>
> >> I'll start, going the opposite direction:
> >>
> >> I run Dynamips/Dynagen on a machine of sufficient horsepower, and I
> >> can directly capture traffic from a router interface into a .cap
> >> file and scrutinize every one and zero using open source WireShark.
> >> When I want to do that w/ physical routers, I have to use Ethernet
> >> (no serial) and set up a span port on a switch or put a hub in
> >> between the two routers, with a machine running WireShark hanging
> >> off of the hub (and I'm obviously in HDX at this point, which means
> >> the test environment is different than the non-test environment).
> >> Otherwise, I'm limited to only
> >> debug. I, of course, acknowledge that you're
> >> limited to only debug in
> >> the lab, but in your preparation for the lab, it's powerful to have
> >> such a tool at your disposal so that you can truly understand
> >> what's going on under the hood when you see certain debug output.
> >>
> >> BTW, I'm told Juniper has this capability to write .cap files on
> >> physical routers, but I cannot personall y verify. I have never
> >> heard of such a capability on Cisco routers, but I'd love to be
> >> proven wrong.
> >>
> >> There are more, of course, but I've already stated many of them in
> >> other recent threads and posts...
> >>
> >> -------- Original Message --------
> >> Subject: Dynagen folks...
> >> From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> >> Date: Fri, August 31, 2007 9:53 pm
> >> To: "'Cisco certification'"
> >> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> >>
> >> Nothing feels as good as the real thing. And else nothing can
> >> prepare
> >> you
> >> for the real thing.
> >>
> >> (Remember if you only have had sex with a condom, your still a
> >> virgin, LOL)
> >>
> >> Check out the Brian's racks!
> >>
> >> http://www.affirmedsystems.com/photos/IERACKS.JPG
> >>
> >> Rack12R6#sh vers
> >>
> >> Cisco IOS Software, 2800 Software (C2800NM-ADVENTERPRISEK9-M),
> >> Version
> >> 12.4(13a), RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1)
> >>
> >> Technical Support:
> >> http://www.cisco.com/techsupport
> >>
> >> Copyright (c) 1986-2007 by Cisco Systems, Inc.
> >>
> >> Compiled Tue 06-Mar-07 17:01 by prod_rel_team
> >>
> >> ROM: System Bootstrap, Version 12.4(13r)T, RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1)
> >>
> >> Rack12R6 uptime is 6 hours, 4 minutes
> >>
> >> System returned to ROM by power-on
> >>
> >> System image file is
> >> "flash:c2800nm-adventerprisek9-mz.124-13a.bin"
> >>
> >> This product contains cryptographic features and is subject to
> >> United
> >>
> >> States and local country laws governing import, export, transfer
> >> and
> >>
> >> use. Delivery of Cisco cryptographic products does not imply
> >>
> >> third-party authority to import, export, distribute or use
> >> encryption.
> >>
> >> Importers, exporters, distributors and users are responsible for
> >>
> >> compliance with U.S. and local country laws. By using this
> >> product
> >> you
> >>
> >> agree to comply with applicable laws and regulations. If you are
> >> unable
> >>
> >> to comply with U.S. and local laws, return this product
> >> immediately.
> >>
> >> A summary of U.S. laws governing Cisco cryptographic products may
> >> be
> >> found
> >> at:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > http://www.cisco.com/wwl/export/crypto/tool/stqrg.html
> >
> >> If you require further assistance please contact us by sending
> >> email
> >> to
> >>
> >> export@cisco.com.
> >>
> >> Cisco 2811 (revision 53.50) with 196608K/65536K bytes of memory.
> >>
> >> Processor board ID FTX1101A1Z0
> >>
> >> 2 FastEthernet interfaces
> >>
> >> 1 Serial(sync/async) interface
> >>
> >> 1 Virtual Private Network (VPN) Module
> >>
> >> DRAM configuration is 64 bits wide with parity enabled.
> >>
> >> 239K bytes of non-volatile configuration memory.
> >>
> >> 253160K bytes of USB Flash usbflash1 (Read/Write)
> >>
> >> 62720K bytes of ATA CompactFlash (Read/Write)
> >>
> >> Configuration register is 0x2142 (will be 0x2102 at next reload)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> >
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> >
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> >
> >> Subscription information may be found at:
> >> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________________
> > Subscription information may be found at:
> > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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