From: Tony Schaffran \(GS\) (groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com)
Date: Sat Mar 01 2008 - 23:18:02 ARST
We could what if till the cows come home.
Is there any way we can put a stop to this thread?
Tony Schaffran
Network Analyst
CCIE #11071
CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
www.cconlinelabs.com
Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack rentals.
_____
From: Isabella Figarella [mailto:gigi.ccie@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 5:05 PM
To: darth router
Cc: Greg Wendel; Scott Vermillion; Joseph Brunner; Tony Schaffran (GS);
Robert Hosford; sheherezada@gmail.com; tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com; Cisco
certification
Subject: Re: Unassigned CCIE query.
If I earn $50,000.00 at my day job as the cisco admin of an un-named
company. I get my ccie but I still love my company. Why not rent my cert
and obtain a return on my investment? Look I'm not out to save the world.
I'm in it or numbero uno and if it means an extra 2-3k per month on top of
my dream job with a measly 50k salary where I live, then why the hell not?
Now as for the contract part. If I sign my contract and it states a 1+ year
contractual agreement and I agree to it for my retainer and then further
agree to sell billable hours at say 50.00 per hour and then also earn a
decent 3 percent commission on new sales that i bring in. Why not?
If you want to even the table in terms of the rate of a ccie - bring more to
the table. Or know when to fold your hand. I am mercenary and I go to the
highest bidder. I get paid today for this and I do expect to get paid
tomorrow for it. But why should every ccie have to quit her own job and get
another one just because i chose to improve my knowledge level.
Not a crime to offer something of value for sale and obtain a price for it.
This is America, isn't it.
If I want to work at McDonalds for $50000.00 per year i may never get a job,
what's a girl to do. But if i offer my services for minimum wage i can get
a job. Reverse the argument. HR always holds the cards with us one way or
the other.
I like the bonus i get now for parking my professional level certs. Looking
forward to doing the same with my ccie when i get it. Silly boys trix are
for kids.
Look at lawyers - is the concept of a retainer so foreign to professionals
here? Everyone from the help desk? We only have 24 hours in a day, it is
up to each of us to get the most value from our investment. Show me the
money, fool.
I have heard of Cisco Gold Partners in the US pay 50-80k for a ccie in
recent years. And international companies paying only 20-30k for a ccie
based on region.
Do what you like with your investment, but whatever you do make sure you get
the return on investment.
On 3/1/08, darth router <darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't have all the answers on this topic, and it maybe a grey area, but...
Partners and CCIEs are doing this very thing right now. I'm not talking
about rentacert. Theres no way in hell I would give any company my CCO login
credentials, which is one of their requirements. No real reason to get
heated over it, but people are doing this. I'm curious what the vendors have
to say about this, Surely the multiple CCIEs like Scott and the Brians
should have some words of wisdom on the issue.
On 3/1/08, darth router <darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "If a channel partner hires a CCIE away from another Cisco Certified or
> Specialized Partner, Cisco will not count this individual toward the
> certification or specialization for the hiring channel partner for
12-months
> from the date of hire.
> This would make it tough for a CCIE to rent themselves to more than one
> partner over the course of a 12-month period.
> Near as we can tell, the Rent-a-Cert idea is based on the concept that a
> CCIE could simply loan his/her certification number to a channel partner,
> but given that Cisco has a complete employment history of all CCIEs we
would
> discover during the audit process that a CCIE was a registered employee
for
> two companies thus making it impossible for them to qualify as a full-time
> contractor or employee. "
>
> This is one of the issues. If your a consultant, you wouldn't
> rent/contract your CCIE to more than one company anyway, thus there is no
> violation.
>
> "What I personally think about the Rent A Cert idea:1. Cisco Cert holders
> have the right to market themselves and create job opportunities in pretty
> much whatever manner they wish. However, the Rent A Cert idea is penny
> wise and dollar foolish for the cert holder, although it may appear at
first
> to be a great way to earn extra monthly cash from your cert"
>
> Does he say anywhere in that paragraph that this is a violation of
> partnership reqs? Negative. The devaluation of the cert is a completely
> different argument. My point is, you are allowed and can do this. If
cisco
> legally defines what a "full time" time contract means, that could put a
lot
> of partners in
> trouble. Scott, your missing my point. It's not a violation unless they
say it is. I could also work as a part time employee directly to the
company, working 3-4 hours a week (not a contractor) and help them get their
partnership.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/1/08, Greg Wendel <gwendel@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Scott,
> > Remember, if the glove fits you must acquit =).
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Scott Vermillion <
> > scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
> >
> > > (The following e-mail should be deleted by Tony Varriale and any who
> > > agree
> > > that this discussion is a waste of precious BW...)
> > >
> > > Darth,
> > >
> > > I took the time to read this article. From the Cisco PR Manager of
> > > Corporate Communications:
> > >
> > > "...we see a couple of issues with the Rent-a-Cert idea..."
> > >
> > > "According to our Channel Partner Program requirements, partners can
> > > employ
> > > *full-time* contractor employees..."
> > >
> > > "As part of our annual partner audit we validate the employment
> > > contracts
> > > for the required CCIEs."
> > >
> > > "This requirement to remain compliant between annual audits makes
> > > Rent-a-Cert a short-term fix or expensive long-term proposition."
> > >
> > >
> > > From the author of the friggin article himself:
> > >
> > > "...the Rent A Cert idea is penny wise and dollar *foolish for the
> > > cert
> > > holder*, although it may appear at first to be a great way to earn
> > > extra
> > > monthly cash from your cert.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > Because it will drive down the salaries of all Cisco cert holders once
> > > Cisco
> > > partners get into the habit of "cheaply renting" Cisco certs."
> > >
> > > "Initially the Rent A Cert idea will appear advantageous for Cisco
> > > partners
> > > renting CCIEs on the "cheap".
> > >
> > > But where is that partner's value proposition?"
> > >
> > > ???????
> > >
> > > Darth, I cannot imagine why you posted this article in your own
> > > defense - it
> > > totally discredits the concept in every way possible! You may as well
> > > have
> > > introduced as evidence the missing murder weapon at your own trial.
> > >
> > > ???????
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > > Of
> > > darth router
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 11:03 AM
> > > To: Joseph Brunner
> > > Cc: Tony Schaffran (GS); Robert Hosford; sheherezada@gmail.com;
> > > tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com; Cisco certification
> > > Subject: Re: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > >
> > > It's not against the rules to contract out to a partner and for them
> > > to use
> > > your CCIE. You guys ought to read that article. Honestly, all this
> > > talk
> > > about devaluing the cert is nonsense. Cisco has ultimate control of
> > > what
> > > devalues the cert, not us. They are managing to do that by their own
> > > greedy
> > > devices. My employer uses my IE (Yep, I work there full time) to get
> > > into
> > > jobs. That does not mean I do the work. Isn't that unethical? Nope,
> > > it's
> > > just another day of business in the partner world.
> > >
> > > DR
> > >
> > > On 3/1/08, Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > As a side note:
> > > >
> > > > Is there any end user company that will "only buy from a gold
> > > partner"?
> > > >
> > > > I think most of the companies I know want far far more than 38% off
> > > > list...
> > > >
> > > > (they want 50%+ off list) and for that we go to networkhardware.com
> > > >
> > > > When you are buy two of everything and allowing NO SINGLE POINT OF
> > > FAILURE
> > > > (all my designs) what difference does "new but used" make?
> > > >
> > > > I think Cisco's partner model needs adjusting... if the only value
> > > gold
> > > > partners bring is the discount how long will that last?
> > > >
> > > > Most of the support I see being done by tac - customer's don't want
> > > gold
> > > > partners billing $200+ per hour to configure a few vlans anyway...
> > > >
> > > > They just get those guys they hired with "CCNA or CCIE required ads"
> > > on
> > > > dice
> > > > to open a support call.
> > > >
> > > > LOL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > > Of
> > > > Tony
> > > > Schaffran (GS)
> > > >
> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 10:39 AM
> > > > To: 'Robert Hosford'; sheherezada@gmail.com
> > > > Cc: tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com; 'Cisco certification'
> > > > Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > > >
> > > > That is an entirely different scenario.
> > > >
> > > > The umbrella company itself is employing the resources regardless of
> > > them
> > > > being spread across the 26 different divisions. If they have a
> > > customer
> > > > that has come to them because of their gold status, that umbrella
> > > company
> > > > has those 5 CCIE's on hand to provide the service the customer
> > > expects
> > > > from
> > > > a gold partner if needed.
> > > >
> > > > That is actually how the company I work for operates. We have
> > > offices all
> > > > over the United States and employ over one hundres CCIE's. Most of
> > > our
> > > > reigons could not support Gold status on their own, but if they need
> > > a
> > > > CCIE
> > > > resource for a customer, they can pull that resource from another
> > > region.
> > > > This is smart business.
> > > >
> > > > Now consider a customer has gone to a company because of their gold
> > > status
> > > > and that gold partner has just rented CCIE numbers and does not have
> > > the
> > > > resources available. The customer would possible not get the
> > > service they
> > > > expected, the gold partner status would lose its value and
> > > eventually, the
> > > > CCIE would no longer be needed.
> > > >
> > > > Look at the big picture. Just because renting CCIE numbers happens
> > > and is
> > > > a
> > > > common practice in some areas, does not make it right. In the long
> > > run,
> > > > it
> > > > will only hurt us.
> > > >
> > > > I think we have said enough on this topic. If you still think there
> > > is no
> > > > problem with renting your CCIE number, then there is nothing
> > > stopping you.
> > > > That is just the kind of person you are.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck with your future.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tony Schaffran
> > > > Network Analyst
> > > > CCIE #11071
> > > > CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
> > > > NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
> > > >
> > > > www.cconlinelabs.com
> > > > Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack rentals.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Robert Hosford [mailto:rhosford@certifiednets.com]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 5:27 AM
> > > > To: sheherezada@gmail.com; Tony Schaffran (GS)
> > > > Cc: tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com; Cisco certification
> > > > Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > > >
> > > > Tony,
> > > >
> > > > Tell me, does the following scenario hurt your CCIE value? Is it
> > > ethical?
> > > >
> > > > A Company has 26 separate divisions that all have different HR
> > > > departments,
> > > > different CEOs, different internal payrolls departments, different
> > > state
> > > > business licenses. Yet the umbrella company claims gold status
> > > because
> > > > amongst the 26 division there are 5 CCIEs?
> > > >
> > > > I think hurts your CCIE value. I think it is unethical because for
> > > Tax
> > > > purposes all 26 divisions are separate. In reality the divisions
> > > are 26
> > > > different companies. None of the individual companies can be a
> > > silver
> > > > partner on their own. I don't see you complaining about this kind
> > > of
> > > > fraud.
> > > > This fraud hurts honest Gold Partners that will hire, train, and
> > > retain
> > > > skilled CCIEs.
> > > >
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > > Of
> > > > sheherezada@gmail.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:37 PM
> > > > To: Tony Schaffran (GS)
> > > > Cc: tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com; Cisco certification
> > > > Subject: Re: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > > >
> > > > Tony,
> > > >
> > > > I think you are right, but in some countries Cisco itself distorts
> > > the
> > > > market. Have you heard of the unique Cisco concept named "country
> > > > grouping"? Say, put together three Eastern European countries and
> > > let
> > > > partners claim Gold status for each of them, even if they have zero
> > > > CCIEs in particular country, just because they happen to count up to
> > > > four in the other two altogether.
> > > >
> > > > Mihai
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Tony Schaffran (GS)
> > > > <groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com> wrote:
> > > > > I am speaking to all CCIE's.
> > > > >
> > > > > This practice is simply unethical and serves to only bring down
> > > the
> > > > value
> > > > of
> > > > > being a CCIE.
> > > > >
> > > > > If a company can just buy a number at a discount rate, then why
> > > would
> > > > any
> > > > > company employ a CCIE at a premium rate?
> > > > >
> > > > > Think about it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony Schaffran
> > > > > Network Analyst
> > > > > CCIE #11071
> > > > > CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
> > > > > NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
> > > > >
> > > > > www.cconlinelabs.com
> > > > > Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack rentals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Tony Varriale [mailto:tvarriale@flamboyaninc.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:37 AM
> > > > > To: 'Tony Schaffran (GS)'; 'Cisco certification'
> > > > > Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure which "a CCIE" you are speaking to. But, not only
> > > does
> > > > Cisco
> > > > > allow it, it happens.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want something to worry about, check out Mr. Reese and his
> > > > "don't
> > > > pay
> > > > > for licenses but Cisco should support the 3rd party market gear"
> > > > mantra.
> > > > > That has way more wide spread impact on the community and
> > > economy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > Tony
> > > > > Schaffran (GS)
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 12:58 PM
> > > > > To: 'Tony Varriale'; 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco certification'
> > > > > Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > > > >
> > > > > This topic touches on basic ethics and I would hope a CCIE would
> > > have a
> > > > > higher standard.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it right for a company to just buy a CCIE number to get the
> > > partner
> > > > > discounts and deceive their clients by claiming to be a gold
> > > partner or
> > > > such
> > > > > without really having the resources on hand?
> > > > >
> > > > > To me, this just seems fundamentally wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony Schaffran
> > > > > Network Analyst
> > > > > CCIE #11071
> > > > > CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
> > > > > NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
> > > > >
> > > > > www.cconlinelabs.com
> > > > > Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack rentals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > Tony
> > > > > Varriale
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:48 AM
> > > > > To: 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco certification'
> > > > > Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes it is. I would recommend not using that service you listed.
> > > You
> > > > can
> > > > > easily find someone to take it if you are in a major metro area
> > > by
> > > > asking
> > > > > around and possible even from your local Cisco office.
> > > > >
> > > > > Normal rates are $2-3k/month with a 12 month contract.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > > Darren Johnson
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:41 AM
> > > > > To: 'Cisco certification'
> > > > > Subject: Unassigned CCIE query.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey all. As per my post last week, I passed the lab and now have
> > > an
> > > > > unassigned CCIE number (I paid for study and lab myself). I'm now
> > > in a
> > > > > position where I'm weighing up my options. Is it possible to
> > > 'rent' out
> > > > my
> > > > > CCIE number to a company, whilst still remaining employed by my
> > > present
> > > > > employer? I have heard of rentacert.com but people seemed
> > > skeptical of
> > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me stress, I DO NOT WANT TO VIOLATE ANY CISCO POLICIES and if
> > > > renting
> > > > > out a cert is doing so, I WILL NOT DO IT. However, if it is
> > > > possible/legal
> > > > > and people out there do it, can they kindly explain how it works.
> > > I
> > > > want
> > > > to
> > > > > get as much value out of my cert as possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for ANY advice
> > > > >
> > > > > Darren
> > > > > #20078
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > > > Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier
> > > to
> > > > use"
> > > > > The Wall Street Journal
> > > > > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue Apr 01 2008 - 07:53:51 ART