From: Scott Vermillion (scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com)
Date: Wed Feb 27 2008 - 18:56:58 ARST
LOL Scott, I was just this very moment on a private job/contract opportunity
board maintained by an industry group that I belong to and the following
bullet was found under a "Systems Engineer IV" position requirements
section:
"Network certification in one or more systems or network certifications,
i.e. CCIE, CCNA, CCNP, FCNE, MCP."
All too common in my experience, but this really says more about your
typical HR type than it does about the value of the cert. Funny,
nevertheless, given today's discussion...
;~)
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 12:18 PM
To: 'Scott Vermillion'; 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco
certification'
Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
Most of the job posts are more like "CCNA Required, CCIE Desired" which look
at and say "Ya think?" :)
I hadn't seen that particular interview, but there are always ways to spin
things either correctly or incorrectly. Part of that may be based on the
knowledge (or not) of the person being interviewed. The folks in charge of
the program who have plenty of experience and CAN talk technically about fun
things like that are not sharing of that opinion.
They're the ones I'd look to for good information.
Time will tell either way!
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M
#153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.810.454.0130
http://www.ipexpert.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Vermillion
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 2:05 PM
To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
LOL Joe, I did see that "strong CCNA" post. And, in that same vein, I
recently posted my resume to Monster but clearly indicated in my profile
that I am a contract worker who will travel but not relocate. I have been
inundated with queries as to my willingness to move to (fill in the blank)
and work shifts in some NOC. Often, the requirement for the position,
certification-wise, is "CCNA/CCNP/CCIE." As if they were all pretty much
the same damned thing!??
I have never worked with recruiters in my life (and that was not the intent
I had when posting my resume up - rather, I'm trying to get some hits from
organizations searching for CCIEs in my area or who are willing to travel).
I had no idea what pond scum these losers turn out to be. Talk about LAZY.
If the top-paid recruiter (at least out of those who have been in touch with
me) were to earn $20k/year, it'd be about $15k too much!
But I digress...
Back to the value of the CCIE (which I guess isn't strictly speaking on
topic either, but close enough):
It's clear that Cisco views the new CCDE as top dog. It has been taken down
from every site that I have been able to locate (at either Cisco's request
or insistence, I'm not sure which), but there was recently an interview with
some female Cisco employee who worked inside of the certification program.
She made clear that, although the CCIE and CCDE were both expert-level
certifications, the CCDE was going to be an order of magnitude more
difficult to obtain and would in practice be a level up in the hierarchy.
She spoke of the CCIE almost disparagingly. No wonder that interview was
made to disappear so quickly!
My limited personal experience thus far has been that the CCIE is valuable
and adds to your luster. I have been contacted regarding opportunities that
were not being made available to me prior to certification. However, it's
thus far really done nothing for my consulting business, as organizations
generally want to gobble up CCIEs all to themselves as W2 wage earners
(often to meet these channel requirements or just to add to their own luster
in the eyes of their own clients). I suppose time will tell as to the
longer-term impact of both the CCDE and the growth of the CCIE program
itself. In the mean time, I do personally perceive that the channel
requirements are our friends in terms of sustaining our value in the overall
marketplace.
And I continue to work on my rather rusty IS-IS skills as part of my new SP
endeavors. LOL...
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Joseph Brunner
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:32 AM
To: 'Scott Vermillion'; 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
That's fair, I agree.
But what I'm saying is the $100k offered to CCIE's is often inadequate (I
mean come on, its nearly impossible to support a family on that income
nowadays almost anywhere without being in debt)
So what the guy needs is an extra $50k a year. What we should be talking
about is what the hell happened that he can't just get $170k a year or more
and just relax.
I'll tell you...
The value of someone who knows what they are doing just isn't there
anymore... Did you see my post a couple of weeks back "CCIE required or will
consider a STRONG CCNA" from a dice post.
The value of the CCIE has decreased because IT is quickly losing its value
to businesses (even though they need it).
If you are out there, please, NRF, tell us again why IT will all be
outshored to India very soon and that companies no longer have "in house
electricians"...
-Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Vermillion
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:22 PM
To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
Of course there always exists a way to cheat the system (just like the lab
or the written) if someone is truly determined Joe. But the CCIE
requirement for partners is meant to ensure high standards in the channel
program. I believe that it's one of the few things still keeping CCIE
salaries high, as there are hiring organizations out there that absolutely
*must* retain CCIEs to keep their businesses viable. If what you propose
were to become common, then CCIE salaries likely _would_ drop to the $50k
mark, as rather than actually needing to hire them at $100k+, they could
just go out and do this end-around on the program requirements and never
actually hire any CCIEs with the intent that they act in a senior network
engineering role. I think the symbiosis here between CCIEs and channel
partners has to be respected or we all suffer (whether or not we personally
chose to work for one)...
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Joseph Brunner
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:08 AM
To: 'Scott Vermillion'; 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
This doesn't really matter, and does not prove anything.
The GOLD PARNTER can just pay someone say $50,000 on a W2 as a CCIE and for
that I agree to let them USE my number, and do at least 1 conference call
with their clients each month. There would be no way to tell how many hours
the guy was there...
That seems like fair use to me... How about you guys?
Therefore, I am an employee. The deal is I'm never there, yet I still get
paid. They get a CCIE's number for their roster and a low salary no sane
CCIE would work for...
?
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Vermillion
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 12:51 PM
To: 'Darren Johnson'; 'Cisco certification'
Subject: RE: Unassigned CCIE query.
Hey Darren,
The bottom line is that you cannot do what you're proposing. Last time this
came up, I (or somebody - maybe it wasn't be after all) went and found the
audit rules for partner status. Those made very, very clear that any CCIE
numbers being used for partner status had to be *full-time* regular
employees and that (IIRC), the auditor could review payroll records, etc, to
validate that the CCIE was an active, daily participant in the business.
I'm in the same situation. I work independently and thus my number floats.
I don't really want to work in a partner/reseller environment, though, so
that aspect of my number holds no value. Oh well...
Regards,
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Darren Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:41 AM
To: 'Cisco certification'
Subject: Unassigned CCIE query.
Hey all. As per my post last week, I passed the lab and now have an
unassigned CCIE number (I paid for study and lab myself). I'm now in a
position where I'm weighing up my options. Is it possible to 'rent' out my
CCIE number to a company, whilst still remaining employed by my present
employer? I have heard of rentacert.com but people seemed skeptical of it.
Let me stress, I DO NOT WANT TO VIOLATE ANY CISCO POLICIES and if renting
out a cert is doing so, I WILL NOT DO IT. However, if it is possible/legal
and people out there do it, can they kindly explain how it works. I want to
get as much value out of my cert as possible.
Thanks for ANY advice
Darren
#20078
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