From: Scott Morris (smorris@ipexpert.com)
Date: Mon Nov 05 2007 - 11:52:51 ART
JP,
I think you're looking at things wrong here. Mark didn't mention that you
should go back and take CCVP training, simply that the topics that are
causing issues are covered in the CCVP level.
The thing with CCIE (any track) is that the tasks make an assumption of some
base level knowledge and the ability of combining multiple tasks together.
As I'm sure you are aware from CCVP tests/classes, Cisco has about six weeks
worth of classroom training just to cover the basic tasks for being a voice
professional (not an expert). This is where basics are covered.
When it comes to the expert level, it's a matter of finding the complicated
tasks, or the things that you wouldn't have learned anyplace else. But if
anyone had to repeat everything from the ground up, it would suddenly become
a two month bootcamp, or a 40,000 page workbook which nobody would read
anyway.
While there is always a desire to figure out quick answers as in "the task
asked this, what do I do?", that doesn't always answer the question. In a
perfect world, it would. Although at that point, anyone who could follow
simple instructions would be an "expert" and where would the fun in that be?
Instead, an expert needs to know all the basics PLUS additional things on
top to put the complicated tasks back together. More importantly, they need
to know how to troubleshoot. What happens in a real-world installation
when something goes wrong? You can put the same cookie cutter config back
in 15 times, but you may end up with the same result if that's not where the
problem is!
The labs are going to point out the important pieces for each task and how
to do them. If there is something not working correctly from some previous
task (like missing a route-pattern, or being in the wrong pool/CSS), you
can't possibly expect anyone's document to cover every possible contingency
on why things are not working.
I don't teach the voice class (because I haven't passed the voice lab yet
either!) but I see similar things in R&S/SP classes that I teach. People
overestimate their preparedness, and forget about some very basic things.
In a classroom environment or in support forums/e-mail lists, I make every
effort to help the person without giving a "this is the specific problem, go
fix it" because that won't teach them how to solve it next time.
Mark and Vik have both spent a number of hours with you specifically to work
on issues you were having. I have only been involved from the point of what
you have posted here on a public, non-vendor-specific forum. The messages
YOU post make it appear that a substandard product has led you to have these
difficulties and nobody is helping you. Even the short time I have seen
this, it has become apparent to me that this is not the case at all.
So, let's look at it from a different perspective. You mentioned how much
money you have spent on training and workbooks and such, and apparently
there are still some difficulties here. So what is it that YOU are
expecting from this? Any lab track, any exam, any practice lab all boils
down to the same basic things. In the event that something doesn't match
up, we have two options. 1. You can copy an answer from the workbook
solutions guide (unless you start from the very beginning, you may have
missed something though and it still wont' work) or 2. You can look at
methods of troubleshooting such that the routers, switches, CM, or whatever
box can tell you what's missing. One of the grand rules of troubleshooting
is that you should understand what is SUPPOSED TO BE happening so that you
can look at what REALLY IS happening and therefore determine where the
problem may lie.
So in the end, after all the training and practice labs and everything else,
if the problems being encountered are still at the "basic" level (in that
they are fundamental pieces of the process), where does a resolution lie?
Being an expert at the technologies means you have to understand this. It
is not the fault of an expert-level class/workbook/materials if every single
nuance of every single configuration isn't covered.
Again, going back to my experiences and teaching of R&S stuff. I do not
cover every single possible mutation of OSPF peering problems. We'd spend a
week on that alone. But understanding the basics, and forcing the students
to pause and think about those (things we often take for granted) and making
them troubleshoot things really makes the learning stick. Now, I've been
doing this teaching part for 8+ years now and working on this stuff for over
20. I've seen the process work in many different technologies and I don't
think that Mark/Vik are doing anything out of the ordinary in their
processes.
I also see how much work they put in to helping students like yourself, and
when those people turn around to a different forum making it sound like
nobody is helping, it's a little irritating. I believe that's where Mark's
point is coming from about not making baseless comments. I re-read his
message though and he didn't specifically tell you to go back to CCVP
training. Other people may make that commentary or thought, but he did not.
So what, other than the hours of one-on-one assistance you have already had,
do you actually expect to occur?
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M
#153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
smorris@ipexpert.com
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.810.454.0130
http://www.ipexpert.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
jatinder.p.singh@bt.com
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:16 AM
To: msnow@ipexpert.com; Irfan.Siddiqui@vanco.co.uk
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: IPEXPERT VOICE LAB technology LAB 4 (4.9) - please help....
Mark,
Keep your Tone down here. If I have spend $10000 on your products and ask
some simple questions which are missing from your solutions gude than where
is my mistake. You are asking me that I will go back and take the training
of CCVP but you people have top make your workbook perfect not provide any
baseless comment to me.
I have not seen any where in your solution workbook that has mentioned you
have to create a Route Pattern. I have not created any Route Pattern yet on
CCM. You have to clearly mentioned that in solution work book also. In your
Proctor Guide Pages 82 till 87 where you have mentioned that to make it work
you have to create a route Pattern. I know that there is no Route Pattern
for 3... numbers. But I have to follow as per your work book solution and
thinking that I am doing something wrong here.
Now you people ask me that you dont have base knowlege. Why we will buy your
workbooks and support from you guys because we are not expert as you are.
I dont know what I have ask you that you people are telling that you will
remove me from Group list of voice. If you think that you people are only
expert in World than you are wrong. There are so many people who can answer
my questions. If you dont want to answer. I dont have any probs. But I will
continue with my studies.
Regards
J P Singh
________________________________
From: nobody@groupstudy.com on behalf of Mark Snow
Sent: Sun 04/11/2007 20:27
To: Irfan Siddiqui
Cc: Cisco certification
Subject: Re: IPEXPERT VOICE LAB technology LAB 4 (4.9) - please help....
JP,
I certainly understand your frustration in getting this solution to work,
the CUBE can be a tricky thing to get working at times even without adding
H323 GK and transcoding to the mix.
After having seen your posts related to this very issue today over on
OSL_Voice, where Vik and I have been supporting you and this WB for some
time, it seems that you have a basic CSS/PT or possibly ICT or
H323 GW issue before the call ever gets over to the CUBE - seeing as how you
are not seeing any debug output whatsoever on the HQ CUBE even when doing a
'debug voip dialpeer all'. I would start there looking at the HQ phone that
is placing the call - look at the CSS's on the device and the line level,
follow that CSS and look at the PT's inside of it, then look at the Route
Patterns in that PT that may match, and finally follow those onto the RL,
RG, and then ICT Trunk or H323 GW and check to see that the call is leaving
the GW and headed to the proper address.
You should probably try activating CCM Detailed Traces for both the Pub and
the Sub, and it would help if the GW/ICT and the HQ Phone were both
registered to the same Primary CPE (Pub OR Sub) so that the traces can
either all be found on one FS, or at least that the time is sync'd between
them so you can sync up the trace file times.
JP, I feel I would be remiss if I didn't remind you how many hours my team
has spent with you on the phone, let alone the many more hours through email
and forum support, trying to troubleshoot some of the more basic configs of
our WB where you also made the countless claims that our WB was prone to
these types of errors - and that just as in this situation, the problem
showed itself to be one of user configuration error and proved that the
configurations were in fact correct. I am not claiming that we have never
once encountered an error in our Voice WB, of course we are all human and do
have the occasional error. All I ask is that before you make baseless claims
such as this one, that you seek support and allow us the chance to give you
the requested help so that we may help you find your errors as you go along
and continue to aid you on your journey to becoming an IE in Voice.
Once you work through the suggestions I gave in the second paragraph, please
let me know specifically what you find in relation to each question along
the way (please include the name of the CSS assigned to the Line or Device,
the names of the PT in the CSS, the RP, the RL, the RG, the GW, and the IP
address of the GW in question).
Good luck in your studies and hope to continue to help you on this problem.
Kind Regards,
Mark Snow
CCIE #14073 (Voice, Security)
CCSI #31583
Senior Technical Instructor - IPexpert, Inc.
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.309.413.4097
Mailto: msnow@ipexpert.com
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Dec 01 2007 - 06:37:28 ART