From: Scott Morris (smorris@ipexpert.com)
Date: Sat Oct 20 2007 - 01:37:36 ART
Someone did ask him that on the Ask the Expert forum. Smartly enough, he
mentioned there were "multiple" learning partners out there with preparation
program, and otherwise stuck to the things listed on the study blueprint on
the CCIE web site! :)
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Brunner [mailto:joe@affirmedsystems.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 12:13 AM
To: 'Narbik Kocharians'; 'darth router'
Cc: 'Darby Weaver'; smorris@ipexpert.com; bdennis@internetworkexpert.com;
'shiran guez'; 'CCIE. LAB'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: IEWB sample lab - switching approach
Has anyone ever asked Morillo Gordito what he thinks candidates should do?
After eating lunch with the proctor's 3 times, I can tell you I know where
they are getting their material from- DIRECTLY from the DOC CD... surprised?
The better you know it, the better you'll do... No B.S. last time I pulled 6
points DIRECTLY off the DOC CD I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
-Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Narbik Kocharians
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:37 PM
To: darth router
Cc: Darby Weaver; smorris@ipexpert.com; bdennis@internetworkexpert.com;
shiran guez; CCIE. LAB; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: IEWB sample lab - switching approach
Please understand that i do not wish to start a war here, but based on what
you are saying, you have ONLY tried NMC and IE, in your opinion and based on
what you are saying, NMC was way tooooo hard and when you looked at IE, it
was much easier and therefore better or I should say more relevant. I have
not seen NMC or IE, and i do understand that some of the vendors try to
protect their material, and they make the process a pain in the ass, but let
me tell you that it takes a lot of work to create a work book, and you do
not want people to just pass it on or copy the stuff. I agree with you, its
unfortunate. Once again I have not seen NMC's work book, or they way they
offer the work book.
You have NOT tried IPexpert since 2005 and you have not tried many other
vendors out there. As you know lots have changed since 2005. That's why i
asked, have you tried all the vendors before saying "*where other vendors
just slapped two more switches in and did not add much to it, or did not
even change the base layer 2 topology to accommodate diverse scenarios*".
That's all.
Trust me i have read some of the answers that Brian s, Scott, IEmentor guys
and Bruce, and these guys are all great, and they have my full respect and i
am in no way saying that my work book is better, or their's are better than
mine. Every author has a philosophy and the work book/s that they write is
based on what they believe. But when you generalize by saying other vendors,
to other people it seems like you have tried every work book out there and
now you are making that statement, which by the way is not true.
On 10/19/07, darth router <darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4
: Fri Nov 16 2007 - 13:11:17 ART
>
> Narbik, I do not have yours, if thats what your wondering. I have
> only
used Ipexpert, NMC, and IE products. I will be frank. NMC labs were overly
difficult and not representitive of the CCIE lab in a difficulty sense
> (IMO). Yes, the labs were incredible, but the answer key info seemed
> to be
all over the place, and they did not right out tell you the command to
answer the questions. In a sense, I see why they do this, probably to make
you learn it
> deeply, but for me, it stymied my progress. Having to use the Showit
> to
get a configuration was a pain in the ass. It seems more of a drm tool in a
sense to prevent distribution more than a straight up learning tool,
> as you need the showit to use the
> workbook. I will give Scott a break, since I have not looked at the
> books
from 2005, but at that time, the book did not go over well with me
> for numerous reasons.
>
> IE has problems too. For one, I found quite a few ways to solve
> particular problems that did not voilate the requirements, and having
> sat the lab 2 times, I am thinking that typically, there is only one
> way to solve something in the lab, with few exceptions.
>
> From the perspective of a guy (me) not having engineered fortune 500
> networks with less experience than many on this board, IEWB just
> really
led
> me through the learning process from A to Z. It was a very clear
> cohesive learning experience. They do a really good job of breaking
> down Q&A in the workbook. I would have tried more workbooks, but I am
> not rich, and coming from a guy who did not know anything about how to
> get the CCIE, i just googled CCIE workbooks and bought the ones that
> popped up. I did not join this board until the last few mo prior to
> taking my test, but had been studying for a long time. IE was my third
> buy, and if it had been my
first,
> I would have probably gone no further.
>
>
> On 10/19/07, Narbik Kocharians <narbikk@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Have you seen every work book froom every vendor out there?
> >
> > On 10/19/07, darth router < darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I suppose I should clarify abit more. Its not just about the
> > > switching topics, its about how they teach them to you, and the
> > > way they build their scenarios. They totally revamped their
> > > switching in V4, where other vendors just slapped two more
> > > switches in and did not add much to it, or did not even change the
> > > base layer 2 topology to accomidate diverse scenarios.
> > > Thats
> > > what I am really getting at. They put a lot of work into the
> > > switching training.
> > >
> > > On 10/19/07, darth router <darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Darby,
> > > >
> > > > I just meant to say that IEWB covers all the switching topics,
> > > > scenario wise, better than the other vendors I have used (2
> > > others).
> > > > The ways of configuring etherchannel are few, I agree with these
> > > points.
> > > > IEWB gives you lots of the same each lab, and manage to
> > > > introduce
> > > something
> > > > new in each lab as far as switching. It was honestly very
> > > > diverse
> > > IMO.
> > > >
> > > > If I was to break it out in Scotts language, I would have thrown
> > > > 2
> > > die 20,
> > > > and cast a fireball of death with my level 4 mage on the
> > > > switching
> > > topics.
> > > > Sorry Scott LOL LOL!!
> > > >
> > > > On 10/18/07, Darby Weaver < darbyweaver@yahoo.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Amen!
> > > > >
> > > > > Think about this one:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm discussing the candidate default route and its usage in
> > > > > practice labs and its potential of being an easy feature, that
> > > > > might be easily misunderstood if encountered in a graded lab
> > > > > environment and if one either takes it for granted and/or does
> > > > > not properly understand its potential for being a valuable
> > > > > tool.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some people wandered what it does, others though "ip
> > > > > default-route" might be considered a static route, and most
> > > > > people seem to have declined to comment or form and opinion
> > > > > for whatever reasons...
> > > > >
> > > > > Now if one is asked to ensure full reachability and there is a
> > > > > layer two device with only an ip address but "no ip routing"
> > > > > in effect...
> > > > >
> > > > > How do you communicate this device's ip address to the rest of
> > > > > your pod?
> > > > >
> > > > > You know the usage of nat did come up and so did using policy
> > > > > routing...
> > > > >
> > > > > But no one (from that forum) had yet considered using the
> > > > > candidate default as a tool in this scenario or one similar to
> > > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So... since this may be a tool required to get a switch's ip
> > > > > addressess propagated to the rest of the pod, maybe it is a
> > > > > useful discussion and maybe not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just another thought on tools and switching and things that
> > > > > get over-looked sometimes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kinda like bridging... and fallback bridging...
> > > > >
> > > > > Again just a thought...
> > > > >
> > > > > Val beat this one into me... and it took a while for the
> > > > > lights to come on...
> > > > >
> > > > > :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Scott Morris < smorris@ipexpert.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The same can be said about any task... Most things, when
> > > > > > broken down, are very simple. However, many people get hung
> > > > > > up in the basics without being able to see that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And oftentimes, the problems occur at the interaction of
> > > > > > tasks, not any one thing by itself! So knowing "how to
> > > > > > configure"
> > > > > > something doesn't
> > > > > > necessarily help with how it works.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that the Brians' or anyone's workbook will provide a
> > > > > > number of different samples of things, some similar, some
> > > > > > not, but it's not just one individual thing that makes a lab
> > > > > > good or bad. Just as it's not just one individual thing
> > > > > > that makes someone fail a lab attempt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Look for the details though. The devil is in there (not
> > > > > > trying to pull too much on what DR was talking about!).
> > > > > > Most people fail because of small simple things, although at
> > > > > > the time they most certainly don't seem that way!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service
> > > > > > Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M
> > > > > > #153, JNCIS-ER, CISSP, et al.
> > > > > > CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
> > > > > > VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> > > > > > IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > smorris@ipexpert.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> > > > > > Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> > > > > > http://www.ipexpert.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > [mailto: nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Darby Weaver
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 9:59 PM
> > > > > > To: darth router
> > > > > > Cc: bdennis@internetworkexpert.com; shiran guez; CCIE.LAB;
> > > > > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: IEWB sample lab - switching approach
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DR,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When they put every scenario in their worbooks...
> > > > > > it really does not leave
> > > > > > out the possiblity that one might come across a similar
> > > > > > scenario in either another workbook or even the lab.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The possibilities are finite as Brain MaGahan stated
> > > > > > previously...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But you know this already...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I mean how many ways are there to configure etherchannel?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- darth router < darklordrouter@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > IEs switching in v 4 is pretty kick ass (Brian,
> > > > > > free stuff over here
> > > > > > > for that plug!). Sometimes they give you all
> > > > > > configs, sometimes you
> > > > > > > are forced to draw a painful Layer 2 diagram out
> > > > > > to figure stuff out.
> > > > > > > Sometimes I ponder whether the Brians are psychic,
> > > > > > or possibly made a
> > > > > > > deal with satan to know how to put the "right"
> > > > > > switching in their
> > > > > > > workbooks to best prepare you for the lab.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DR
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 10/18/07, Darby Weaver < darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Good point.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm just going through the first couple of labs
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > version 4 and have not yet made that distinction
> > > > > > > yet.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I did recall that being an issue from about
> > > > > > > version 2,
> > > > > > > > I think, when I had went to NMC's bootcamp, and
> > > > > > > took
> > > > > > > > me a bit to overcome since I was considerably
> > > > > > > weaker
> > > > > > > > with switching at the time (about lethargic),
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > the chart as a "crutch" and when it was
> > > > > > removed...
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > trembled and fell a bit - but that was a
> > > > > > reference
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > a past event from about 2 years ago and may not
> > > > > > > > represent the current product at all.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The current product is much improved by the way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > impressed that each lab appears to have nearly
> > > > > > 100
> > > > > > > > pages more or less of very well written and
> > > > > > easily
> > > > > > > > understood descriptions of exactly what is
> > > > > > > happeing in
> > > > > > > > each lab.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And I'll tell you another thing, and this is
> > > > > > > premature
> > > > > > > > since I'm only on the third one and there are at
> > > > > > > least
> > > > > > > > 7 available at the moment, those COD's that you
> > > > > > > guys
> > > > > > > > have taken the time to create... are the best
> > > > > > > thing
> > > > > > > > since sliced bread.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I watch so many questions get asked over the
> > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > hear on GS, you know the how or why, etc. Why
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > solution versus these other 2 or 3... And you
> > > > > > > guys
> > > > > > > > hit PAYDIRT... with the COD. I was surprised at
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > much you packed in and did so, incredibly
> > > > > > > concisely
> > > > > > > > too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The product is FANTASTIC! I understand that
> > > > > > > others
> > > > > > > > are following this trend. The pricing is great
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the value is there...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Talk about taking a handful of labs, say just
> > > > > > labs
> > > > > > > 1-5
> > > > > > > > or 1-7 and just mastering them. Know the
> > > > > > why/why
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > and taking the time to enjoy the mastery of some
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the more complex issues discussed in each lab.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The COD's allow one to do this, verus spending a
> > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > of time second guessing solutions - happens alot
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > this list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So 100 pages or so of descriptions and breakdown
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > then a carefully worded COD... that spots the
> > > > > > > > issues...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kewl idea brought to life and masterfully
> > > > > > > executed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- Brian Dennis
> > > > > > <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darby,
> > > > > > > > > In version 4 of the IEWB Vol 2 Workbook
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > isn't a "style" to how
> > > > > > > > > the VLANs are given. There was a "style" in
> > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > 3 to how things
> > > > > > > > > were done but in version 4 you will find that
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > are many "things"
> > > > > > > > > done differently between the labs. Sometimes
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > get the VLAN
> > > > > > > > > information in a table, sometimes through the
> > > > > > > output
> > > > > > > > > of various show
> > > > > > > > > commands, sometimes you are asked to determine
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > VLANs needed by
> > > > > > > > > referencing the diagram and finally sometimes
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > are already done for
> > > > > > > > > you in the initial configurations.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Brian Dennis, CCIE4 #2210
> > > > > > > (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP)
> > > > > > > > > bdennis@internetworkexpert.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Internetwork Expert, Inc.
> > > > > > > > >
http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
> > > > > > > > > Toll Free: 877-224-8987
> > > > > > > > > Direct: 775-745-6404 (Outside the US and
> > > > > > Canada)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: IEWB sample lab - switching
> > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, October 17, 2007 21:08
> > > > > > > > > From: "Darby Weaver" < darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would not fall in love with any vendor's
> > > > > > > style
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > how they depict the VLAN's given.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Since you never know what you may be given
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > (an)
> > > > > > > > > > exhibit(s) and you never know what may be
> > > > > > > asked
> > > > > > > > > later
> > > > > > > > > > that may not appear in the initial given
> > > > > > > > > exhibit(s)
> > > > > > > > > > anyway.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'd almost recommend just looking at a given
> > > > > > > > > diagram
> > > > > > > > > > and then making my own table and diagrams
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then, I'd read the lab tasks given and
> > > > > > ensure
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > there are no other tasks that modify, add,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > remove
> > > > > > > > > > anything from the initial given materials
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > go
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I recall going to my first NMC Bootcamp...
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > used to IE's charts... kicked me into lala
> > > > > > > trying
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > get used from one to the other style.
> > > > > > > Realtime.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But it made me think differently too. And
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > Sinclair will tell you first thing... that
> > > > > > > Switch
> > > > > > > > > > diagram and color codes (vlan = color) real
> > > > > > > > > quickly...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hard to digest at first for some like me...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Get used to seeing them anyway they can be
> > > > > > > thrown
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > you and quckly get used to asking yourself
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > are doing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ask yourself, where's the root bridge... of
> > > > > > > each
> > > > > > > > > > spanning-tree instance. Is it where you
> > > > > > want
> > > > > > > it?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Lots of stuff one needs to pay attention too
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > at the same time.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You'll get used to it after a while.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But that diagram will become as important as
> > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > L3
> > > > > > > > > > to some folks... especially later in the
> > > > > > lab
> > > > > > > > > if/when
> > > > > > > > > > you find yourself troubleshooting something
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > thought you resolved earlier in the morning.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- shiran guez < shiranp3@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the key to understand how the
> > > > > > > logical
> > > > > > > > > > > topology work is to know the
> > > > > > > > > > > Physical topology so I would draw that
> > > > > > > first,
> > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > if the logical topology
> > > > > > > > > > > is not already given to you then I would
> > > > > > > draw it
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > but I would not delay on
> > > > > > > > > > > that for ever.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Vlan Table is also a key element as if you
> > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > be quick and know
> > > > > > > > > > > problems before they start then you need
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Note: some time its just as easy as it
> > > > > > look
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > training I would
> > > > > > > > > > > practice worst case so in the lab I would
> > > > > > > not be
> > > > > > > > > > > tackled due to a hard
> > > > > > > > > > > looking topology.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 10/15/07, CCIE.LAB
> > > > > > < ccie.lab@verizon.net>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On doing the sample labs, what is the
> > > > > > > > > recommended
> > > > > > > > > > > approach on the CAT
> > > > > > > > > > > > Switching sections.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Do I need to draw out the switch
> > > > > > topology
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > is it
> > > > > > > > > > > just as easy as it
> > > > > > > > > > > > looks
> > > > > > > > > > > > by configuring what's in the vlan tables
> > > > > > > > > > > > and then configure the appropriate
> > > > > > trunks
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > trunk table?
> > > > > > > > > > > > Does the switch config come into play
> > > > > > > > > elsewhere in
> > > > > > > > > > > the lab that I should
> > > > > > > > > > > > draw
> > > > > > > > > > > > it out?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thnks
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
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