From: Shlomi Kramer (sk180174@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Oct 12 2007 - 08:59:38 ART
Hello All,
I think that this subject should be taken off line..
Let Cisco find there Ideas alone , NO HELP IS NEEDED>..
It's lots of money time and aggravation as it is....
This Forum should be focusing on learning not talking.... LOL
Hope this chain will stop..
On 10/12/07, Gary Duncanson <gary.duncanson@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> We are all reasonable people here. Some people dump the written exam.
> Others
> take labslots like a revolving door until they pass. I think that's been
> happening for as long as the program existed. Some people post questions
> on
> groupstudy that break NDA. People who study diligently do find
> themselves
> struggling to get the lab slot they have worked hard to prepare for.
>
> I think the problems are pretty well understood, what is less clear is how
> best to resolve them without penalising Joe Soap who is working his nuts
> off
> to get his number. For example, some people rattle out 5 lab attempts in
> short order to pass the lab. Other's don't..
>
> I have a friend called Peter who I have not heard from in years who I
> swapped email with on groupstudy back in 2002. He had a buck stops here
> job
> running a colocation facility for his company providing hosted solutions
> to
> many customers. Peter was a very busy man working a stressful job that
> took
> him away from his family five days and nights a week. Getting the CCIE was
> his ticket to getting a decent paid job closer to home so he could spend
> time with his family and small children. Peter studied after work when he
> could and if you have run infrastructure yourself you will understand that
> after some days he was probably pretty exhausted. No courses, no training
> and no time on works time for the IE. You must be joking. He (like a lot
> of people) studied for the CCIE in the evenings on and off for the best
> part
> of three years and passed at his fifth attempt. He now has a job nearer
> home and good luck to him. I don't think *everyone* would penalise Peter
> if
> his 5 attempts were made public, but given the fickle way the recruitment
> business works with it's screening policies, one can never know for sure.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com>
> To: "Darby Weaver" <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>; "Usankin, Andrew"
> <Andrew.Usankin@twtelecom.com>; "Rahmlow, Howard F."
> <Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com>; <sheherezada@gmail.com>; "Scott Morris"
> <smorris@ipexpert.com>
> Cc: "Burkett, Michael" <Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>; "Brad Ellis"
> <brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "Christopher M. Heffner"
> <cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns" <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>;
> "Brian
> Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>;
> <security@groupstudy.com>; <comserv@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Darby Weaver" <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > To: "nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com>; "Usankin, Andrew"
> > <Andrew.Usankin@twtelecom.com>; "Rahmlow, Howard F."
> > <Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com>; <sheherezada@gmail.com>; "Scott Morris"
> > <smorris@ipexpert.com>
> > Cc: "Burkett, Michael" <Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>; "Brad Ellis"
> > <brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "Christopher M. Heffner"
> > <cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns" <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>;
> > "Brian Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >;
> > <security@groupstudy.com>; <comserv@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> >
> >
> >> Let's just cut the number to if you at first you fail,
> >> then in your coffin we hammer the nail...
> >>
> >> One shot pass or fail.
> >>
> >> That ought to do it.
> >>
> >> Little or no chance of exams leaks and you only get
> >> one shot at the title.
> >
> >
> > I know you're being facetious, but the truth is, such systems do exist
> in
> > the real world.
> >
> > For example, consider the act of applying to college (not grad school,
> but
> > college specifically). I will use Princeton as an example, and you'll
> see
> > why later. Let's say Princeton is your dream school for undergraduate
> > studies. You effectively only get one shot at getting into Princeton.
> > You apply during your high school senior year. If you don't get in,
> > that's basically the end of the ballgame. Now, I suppose in theory, you
> > could just wait a whole 'nother year, not going to any other college
> > during the interm, and just apply again during the next application
> cycle.
> > But the truth is, nobody actually does that. If you don't get in,
> that's
> > the end.
> >
> > Now, the reason I specifically chose Princeton is because of the issue
> of
> > transfer admissions. The fact is, Princeton has not admitted any
> transfer
> > students in many years, and transfer admissions would effectively
> > constitute a "2nd shot". Many schools do admit transfers, but Princeton
> > hasn't for a very long time. Hence, Princeton basically only gives you
> > one shot.
> >
> > Perhaps another more relevant example would be the simple act of getting
> > the job you want at the organization you want. Let's face it. For many
> > jobs, you can't just simply apply and interview over and over again
> every
> > month. If you apply/interview for a particular job and do poorly such
> that
> > you get turned down, that's basically the end of the game. You're
> > probably never going to get that job with that organization.. If that
> > happened to be your dream job, too bad.
> >
> > Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Cisco should allow people
> > to take the CCIE exam only once. What I am saying is that right now
> there
> > are people who are not taking their lab attempts seriously. They know
> they
> > can just keep coming back every month, and so they know they don't have
> to
> > take their early attempts seriously. That's a problem that should be
> > solved. One way to solve the problem (or at least make it better) is to
> > actually publish how many attempts you required before you finally
> passed.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong. I don't really blame those particular people for
> > taking the exam over and over again without bothering to properly
> prepare
> > themselves. They're just doing what the system allows them to do. I
> > blame the system for enforcing no sanctions on that sort of behavior.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> And there would be seats - BTW - If you are a no-show,
> >> it is considered a fail and that's it (short of if you
> >> like died in transit or something...).
> >>
> >> Now that means only about 18000 x.03 = 540 CCIE's but
> >> hey, why in the world would anyone in the world need
> >> 540 living and breathing CCIE's anyway...
> >>
> >> Tell you what: the stock on those 540 CCIE's would be
> >> worth their weight in Cisco Partner Gold.
> >>
> >> Truth is, if Cisco wanted to put a limit on the number
> >> of attempts, they would have done so by now.
> >>
> >> They could cap it at 3 or 4 depending on the average -
> >> figuring if you cannot pass past the average number of
> >> attempts, maybe a CCNP is what you should be and
> >> that's it, or let you go try the JNCIE instead maybe.
> >>
> >> Man you know it is getting late...
> >>
> >> Later
> >>
> >> This is really a useless thread. Keeps one's eyes
> >> from going blind on the CLI.
> >>
> >> Anyone else missing work... and going crazy?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- nrf <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well, at least we can agree that X should be no less
> >>> than 20. Actually, I
> >>> believe that we can say that X should be no less
> >>> than 10. After all, does
> >>> anybody truly believe that it's perfectly fine to
> >>> fail the test 10 times?
> >>>
> >>> Hence, if nothing else, we can at least set the X
> >>> threshold to be 20 (or
> >>> 10). I think there would be little argument about
> >>> that. Hence, if nothing
> >>> else, it's still an improvement over what we have
> >>> today (which is no
> >>> threshold at all).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Usankin, Andrew"
> >>> <Andrew.Usankin@twtelecom.com>
> >>> To: "nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com>; "Rahmlow, Howard
> >>> F."
> >>> <Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com>;
> >>> <sheherezada@gmail.com>; "Scott Morris"
> >>> <smorris@ipexpert.com>
> >>> Cc: "Burkett, Michael" <Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>;
> >>> "Brad Ellis"
> >>> <brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "Christopher M. Heffner"
> >>> <cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns"
> >>> <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>; "Brian
> >>> Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>;
> >>> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>;
> >>> <security@groupstudy.com>; <comserv@groupstudy.com>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:04 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Well, couldn't agree more. 20 attempts is probably
> >>> out of range :) But
> >>> as you said before here comes the question - how
> >>> many is OK?
> >>> Actually I don't mind at all if my scores and
> >>> attempts are available to
> >>> general public, and from the other hand I'd
> >>> understand other people who
> >>> doesn't want publicity. In my opinion, lack of
> >>> information leads to
> >>> speculation. But that is a different discussion.
> >>>
> >>> Andrew
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nrf [mailto:noglikirf@hotmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:34 PM
> >>> To: Usankin, Andrew; Rahmlow, Howard F.;
> >>> sheherezada@gmail.com; Scott
> >>> Morris
> >>> Cc: Burkett, Michael; Brad Ellis; Christopher M.
> >>> Heffner; Eric Dobyns;
> >>> Brian Dennis; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
> >>> security@groupstudy.com;
> >>> comserv@groupstudy.com
> >>> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Usankin, Andrew"
> >>> <Andrew.Usankin@twtelecom.com>
> >>> To: "nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com>; "Rahmlow, Howard
> >>> F."
> >>> <Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com>;
> >>> <sheherezada@gmail.com>; "Scott Morris"
> >>> <smorris@ipexpert.com>
> >>> Cc: "Burkett, Michael" <Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>;
> >>> "Brad Ellis"
> >>> <brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "Christopher M. Heffner"
> >>> <cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns"
> >>> <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>;
> >>> "Brian Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>;
> >>> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <security@groupstudy.com>;
> >>> <comserv@groupstudy.com>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 7:52 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >I read somewhere, sorry if I mess it up, but I
> >>> liked the following
> >>> >phrase:
> >>> >"when a class of medical students graduate even a
> >>> last one is called a
> >>> >doctor"
> >>>
> >>> And of course the rejoinder to that (with apologies
> >>> to those who have
> >>> heard me say it before) is that if you graduate last
> >>> in your med school
> >>> class, you probably won't pass your required USMLE's
> >>> to get your medical
> >>> license and hence you won't be allowed to legally
> >>> practice medicine,
> >>> which is the whole point in becoming a doctor in the
> >>> first place. In
> >>> contrast, anybody can legally 'practice' IT (and I
> >>> think I have met some
> >>> network guys who need to 'practice' their skills a
> >>> whole lot more before
> >>> they should ever be allowed anywhere near a router).
> >>>
> >>> >So would you have to choose between two CCIE's then
> >>> yes, that would be
> >>> >cool to know how many attempts it took from each
> >>> one to pass the lab.
> >>> >But that is not the case in reality. Nobody usually
> >>> gets to choose
> >>> >between two CCIE :) unless you have a very
> >>> attractive offer to show!
> >>>
> >>> I don't know about that. I have known of companies
> >>> that have had
> >>> numerous CCIE's applying, and the offers they were
> >>> providing were really
> >>> not that good.
> >>>
> >>> >Besides, it doesn't matter to me if it will take 15
> >>> attempts from Jeff
> >>> >Brunner before he gets his number. At the end of
> >>> the day all that
> >>> >matters is your CCIE number and amount of
> >>> experience you have. And
> >>> >don't be surprised if at some places nobody would
> >>> care if you have CCIE
> >>>
> >>> >or not and all they look for is your experience.
> >>>
> >>> Well, let me put it to you this way. What if you
> >>> looked up guy who had
> >>> his CCIE and found out that he failed 20 times
> >>> before he finally passed?
> >>> I don't know about you, but I would certainly begin
> >>> to question this
> >>> guy's
> >>> professionalism. If nothing else, that signal
> >>> would tell me that this
> >>> is a
> >>> guy who evidently doesn't believe in proper
> >>> preparation. Would you
> >>> really want a guy like that on your team? I would
> >>> have my qualms.
> >>> After all, he might show up to work on a project
> >>> without being properly
> >>> prepared.
> >>>
> >>> Look, failing a few times is probably no big deal.
> >>> But after a certain
> >>> number of failures, I think we can agree that things
> >>> are just getting
> >>> out of hand. We can debate what that exact number
> >>> would be, but I think
> >>> we can all agree that 20 (or even 10) is probably
> >>> too much.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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-- "Keep it going SMILE"
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