From: nrf (noglikirf@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Oct 11 2007 - 22:48:27 ART
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darby Weaver" <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
To: "Usankin, Andrew" <Andrew.Usankin@twtelecom.com>; "nrf"
<noglikirf@hotmail.com>; "Rahmlow, Howard F." <Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com>;
<sheherezada@gmail.com>; "Scott Morris" <smorris@ipexpert.com>
Cc: "Burkett, Michael" <Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>; "Brad Ellis"
<brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "Christopher M. Heffner"
<cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns" <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>; "Brian
Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>;
<security@groupstudy.com>; <comserv@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> Any person who went 20 times or more - is probably not
> cheating - or if they are cheating they are not very
> good at it.
>
> Amd that same person is probably going to know the IOS
> and the DOC CD at least as well as someone who passed
> on the first try.
Or they finally stumbled upon a version of the test that actually favored
them. That could have happened because they received a test version that
they had seen before. Or it could have been a version that just happened to
ask questions about topics that he knew very well.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> The question is how many times did the guy who passed
> on the first try spend doing practice labs versus the
> guy on his 20th hit?
>
> Chances are a similar amount of effort was eventually
> spent in pursuit of the goal. I mean if one were
> honest and if one counted the actual hours spent. Of
> course, there is some differential for existing
> experience with the product and intellectual facility.
But again, not to sound like a broken record, the real problem is that the
guy who took the failed the exam 20 times effectively denied 20 other people
the chance to take the exam. If you're going to have to spend the same
amount of time/effort to pass the exam anyway, whether you need 1 attempt or
20, then I think it's fair that you should strive to spend that time/effort
to try to pass the attempt on your first shot in order to free up test seats
for others to take their shot. You can't just keep hogging scarce seats.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- "Usankin, Andrew" <Andrew.Usankin@twtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well, couldn't agree more. 20 attempts is probably
>> out of range :) But
>> as you said before here comes the question - how
>> many is OK?
>> Actually I don't mind at all if my scores and
>> attempts are available to
>> general public, and from the other hand I'd
>> understand other people who
>> doesn't want publicity. In my opinion, lack of
>> information leads to
>> speculation. But that is a different discussion.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nrf [mailto:noglikirf@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:34 PM
>> To: Usankin, Andrew; Rahmlow, Howard F.;
>> sheherezada@gmail.com; Scott
>> Morris
>> Cc: Burkett, Michael; Brad Ellis; Christopher M.
>> Heffner; Eric Dobyns;
>> Brian Dennis; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
>> security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Usankin, Andrew"
>> <Andrew.Usankin@twtelecom.com>
>> To: "nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com>; "Rahmlow, Howard
>> F."
>> <Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com>;
>> <sheherezada@gmail.com>; "Scott Morris"
>> <smorris@ipexpert.com>
>> Cc: "Burkett, Michael" <Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>;
>> "Brad Ellis"
>> <brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "Christopher M. Heffner"
>> <cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns"
>> <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>;
>> "Brian Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>;
>> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <security@groupstudy.com>;
>> <comserv@groupstudy.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 7:52 PM
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>>
>>
>> >I read somewhere, sorry if I mess it up, but I
>> liked the following
>> >phrase:
>> >"when a class of medical students graduate even a
>> last one is called a
>> >doctor"
>>
>> And of course the rejoinder to that (with apologies
>> to those who have
>> heard me say it before) is that if you graduate last
>> in your med school
>> class, you probably won't pass your required USMLE's
>> to get your medical
>> license and hence you won't be allowed to legally
>> practice medicine,
>> which is the whole point in becoming a doctor in the
>> first place. In
>> contrast, anybody can legally 'practice' IT (and I
>> think I have met some
>> network guys who need to 'practice' their skills a
>> whole lot more before
>> they should ever be allowed anywhere near a router).
>>
>> >So would you have to choose between two CCIE's then
>> yes, that would be
>> >cool to know how many attempts it took from each
>> one to pass the lab.
>> >But that is not the case in reality. Nobody usually
>> gets to choose
>> >between two CCIE :) unless you have a very
>> attractive offer to show!
>>
>> I don't know about that. I have known of companies
>> that have had
>> numerous CCIE's applying, and the offers they were
>> providing were really
>> not that good.
>>
>> >Besides, it doesn't matter to me if it will take 15
>> attempts from Jeff
>> >Brunner before he gets his number. At the end of
>> the day all that
>> >matters is your CCIE number and amount of
>> experience you have. And
>> >don't be surprised if at some places nobody would
>> care if you have CCIE
>>
>> >or not and all they look for is your experience.
>>
>> Well, let me put it to you this way. What if you
>> looked up guy who had
>> his CCIE and found out that he failed 20 times
>> before he finally passed?
>> I don't know about you, but I would certainly begin
>> to question this
>> guy's
>> professionalism. If nothing else, that signal
>> would tell me that this
>> is a
>> guy who evidently doesn't believe in proper
>> preparation. Would you
>> really want a guy like that on your team? I would
>> have my qualms.
>> After all, he might show up to work on a project
>> without being properly
>> prepared.
>>
>> Look, failing a few times is probably no big deal.
>> But after a certain
>> number of failures, I think we can agree that things
>> are just getting
>> out of hand. We can debate what that exact number
>> would be, but I think
>> we can all agree that 20 (or even 10) is probably
>> too much.
>>
>>
>>
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