From: nrf (noglikirf@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Oct 11 2007 - 20:05:33 ART
I believe another way to solve the problem is to simply denote on the CCIE
verification tool how many times you had failed the exam before you finally
passed. That would serve to cut down on the number of frivolous attempts.
Consider what happens when you're in school. You can take and fail the same
class over and over again (at least, until you eventually get expelled).
But each failure will be marked on your transcript.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rahmlow, Howard F." <Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com>
To: <sheherezada@gmail.com>; "Scott Morris" <smorris@ipexpert.com>
Cc: "Burkett, Michael" <Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>; "Brad Ellis"
<brad@ccbootcamp.com>; "Christopher M. Heffner"
<cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns" <eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>; "Brian
Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>;
<security@groupstudy.com>; <comserv@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> Cisco tried the minimum point thing before, did not work. That was back
> when it was a 2 days lab, and lab dates were real hard to get. All it
> did was create a group that wanted to give the lab a shot, knowing they
> just needed X number of points, and then come back again and try for
> real.
>
> My 2 cents is to change the written. Keep the test they have now, and
> add a second written to be taken later that would include maybe 10 lab
> simulations, like seen on the CCNP tests. These could be pulled at
> random from a pool of simulations. After that part is passed the lab
> test could be scheduled.
>
>
> Howard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> sheherezada@gmail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:36 PM
> To: Scott Morris
> Cc: Burkett, Michael; Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns;
> Brian Dennis; ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Totally agree with you.
>
> Additionally, let's take some costs into consideration. I think that
> the most cost effective ways to free the queue and somehow to improve
> integrity would be:
>
> 1) Introducing a penalty for the test takers that do not make at least
> 40 points at their latest attempt (say wait 6 months)
> 2) Decrease the number of free attempts for the Cisco employees (come
> on, three free attempts seems too much)
>
> A troubleshooting section - or a interview with the proctor - before
> even seeing the lab would be a good thing, I suppose, but:
>
> 1) I was very disappointed by the troubleshooting I saw in my SP exam
> - it was quite trivial to spot the errors. Mismatching the feature
> set and the task was much more fun to figure out.
> 2) English is not a well spoken language by many of us.
>
> Mihai
>
>
> On 10/10/07, Scott Morris <smorris@ipexpert.com> wrote:
>> However, the concern over cheating and sharing with the Assessor
> doesn't
>> give any DIFFERENT indicator, it just puts an extra thing in the
> process.
>>
>> Cheating on the Assessor is entirely possible as well, just like for
> the
>> CCIE lab.
>>
>> That's why (my opinion) a more intense troubleshooting first stage
> exam
>> would yield better measurement of someone's abilities.
> Troubleshooting is
>> an art form, you either know things or you don't.
>>
>> Just my thoughts!
>>
>>
>> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> JNCIE-M
>> #153, CISSP, et al.
>> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
>> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
>> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>>
>> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>>
>> smorris@ipexpert.com
>>
>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
>> http://www.ipexpert.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Burkett, Michael [mailto:Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:19 AM
>> To: Brad Ellis; smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric
> Dobyns;
>> Brian Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>>
>> If you are talking about evaluating readiness before you are allowed
> to book
>> the real exam break the CCIE track into three parts.
>>
>> Step 1
>> Pass CCIE Written Qualification Exam
>> Step 2
>> Pass Assessor Type Exam, 2-3 hours, via remote equipment that can only
> be
>> accessed from you local Cisco office, so no notes cannot be used, and
> its
>> monitored to keep exam integrity. Don't pass this you can even
> schedule the
>> Real Lab.
>> Step 3
>> CCIE Lab Exam, with 60 days between attempts.
>>
>> Michael Burkett
>> CCIE#17084
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Brad
>> Ellis
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:46 PM
>> To: smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian
> Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> Scott,
>>
>> I understood what you were referring too; ie, someone's readiness to
> take
>> the lab exam. I think the written exam should do a better job of
> reflecting
>> this "readiness" level.
>>
>> I'm waiting to see that last "notch" that's going to be on top of the
> CCIE.
>> Can you imagine the wait time to schedule an exam for a review board
> run
>> format? Could be a 2-3 year waiting period. :)
>>
>> thanks,
>> Brad Ellis
>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
>> CCSI# 30482
>> CEO / President
>> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
>> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
>> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
>> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
>> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
>> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>>
>> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:44 PM
>> To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> I'm not talking about the written/qualification exam. I'm talking
> about
>> when someone goes into the lab!
>>
>> The written isn't supposed to be a measure of someone ability at the
> lab.
>> It never was. It's always been a differentiator between theory
> knowledge
>> and doing/application knowledge.
>>
>> I'd keep the written the way it is. I actually like the new written
> exam (a
>> little too much EIGRP still, but all in all good). It's just the
> 8-hour
>> timeframe in the lab that I would like to see changed, and that's the
> part
>> that is best suited for filtering anyway.
>>
>> With all the testking, et al companies out there selling the exam and
> all
>> the testing centers that you can go to, there's not any good way to
> control
>> people on that exam. So wait till they come in for the big one.
> That's the
>> "do or don't do" place.
>>
>>
>> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> JNCIE-M
>> #153, CISSP, et al.
>> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
>> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
>> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>>
>> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>>
>> smorris@ipexpert.com
>>
>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
>> http://www.ipexpert.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brad Ellis [mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:36 PM
>> To: smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian
>> Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> Scott,
>>
>> I agree with you 100%. The main problem is the "qualification exam"
> ie,
>> the
>> "written exam" isn't a very good measure of an engineer's readiness to
>> attempt the lab exam. I think there needs to be a legitimate
>> qualification
>> exam that truly can attest to the level of the engineers competency.
> For
>> CCIE R&S, there used to be wireless on the written exam.
>> Now there is MPLS on the written. Both technologies not being covered
> by
>> the
>> lab exam. How is this an accurate measure of the engineer's abilities
> to
>> attempt the lab exam? It's not! There needs to be a more accurate
>> measurement in place. Once that happens, I think the wait time between
>> attempts will diminish. I also think the length of time you have to
> wait
>> between attempts should correlate to your last lab exam score.
>> Opening up some more testing centers wouldn't be a bad idea either.
> Just
>> my
>> $.02
>>
>> thanks,
>> Brad Ellis
>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
>> CCSI# 30482
>> CEO / President
>> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
>> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
>> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
>> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
>> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
>> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>>
>> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:34 PM
>> To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> If they want to make serious progress in that idea, then they'll take
> a
>> different approach.
>>
>> 1. Start with a troubleshooting lab. 1-2 hours. If you can't figure
>> enough things out to fix, you obviously don't know what's going on and
>> shouldn't get to the "real" lab.
>>
>> 2. Shorten the real lab to 6-7 hours. People who don't make
>> troubleshooting won't even see the real thing and therefore can't
>> possibly
>> copy/memorize it 'cause they went home early.
>>
>> Taking the same lab again is only helpful if you've figured out the
>> answers
>> and can actually make things work! But splitting things up like this
>> will
>> give a higher test of people's deep understanding of technologies
> rather
>> than any sort of memorization for stuff going on.
>>
>> Just my thoughts. But raising the price or increasing the time
> between
>> labs
>> will irritate more good people than it will deter the ones you are
>> trying to
>> keep out.
>>
>> Some people know how things work, others do not. Filter based on
> that!
>>
>> Just my two cents.
>>
>>
>> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
>> JNCIE-M
>> #153, CISSP, et al.
>> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
>> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
>> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>>
>> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>>
>> smorris@ipexpert.com
>>
>> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
>> http://www.ipexpert.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
>> Brad
>> Ellis
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:40 PM
>> To: Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> It might suck, but that would definitely solve a bunch of problems:
>>
>> 1) It would make it much harder for those "real test sites" to get
>> updates
>> 2) The backlog wouldnb t be so bad - there would be a lot more seats
>> available
>> 3) People would stop using the "take the test every 30 days until I
>> pass"
>> technique. I know a few folks who have taken the lab like that 8 or
> more
>> times until they pass. (This method gives a high percentage of "same
>> lab"
>> possibilities.)
>>
>> thanks,
>> Brad Ellis
>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
>> CCSI# 30482
>> CEO / President
>> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
>> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
>> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
>> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
>> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
>> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>>
>> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Christopher M. Heffner [mailto:cheffner@certified-labs.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:07 AM
>> To: Brad Ellis; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> Now that would really "suck" big time!
>>
>> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
>> Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
>>
>> www.certified-labs.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brad Ellis [mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:22 PM
>> To: Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> I've heard that Cisco may change their re-take policy from 30 days to
> 6
>> months for failed tests...but just rumors so far.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Brad Ellis
>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
>> CCSI# 30482
>> CEO / President
>> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
>> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
>> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
>> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
>> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
>> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
>> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
>> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>>
>> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
>> Christopher M. Heffner
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 10:32 AM
>> To: Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>> Importance: Low
>>
>> Please DON'T give them any ideas.
>>
>> This is an expensive enough profession.
>>
>> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
>> Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
>>
>> www.certified-labs.com
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eric Dobyns [mailto:eric_dobyns@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:43 PM
>> To: 'Brian Dennis'; Christopher M. Heffner
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> Right now, I think they could charge twice that and still fill up
> their
>> seats.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
>> Brian Dennis
>> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:22 PM
>> To: Christopher M. Heffner
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
>> comserv@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>>
>> Someone "announced" it here a few weeks ago ;-)
>>
>> Brian Dennis, CCIE4 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP)
>> bdennis@internetworkexpert.com
>>
>> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
>> http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
>> Toll Free: 877-224-8987
>> Direct: 775-745-6404 (Outside the US and Canada)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 8, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Christopher M. Heffner wrote:
>>
>> > Did anyone else notice the lab price increase made by Cisco for the
>> > CCIE Labs?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I noticed when checking lab dates that the price for the lab is now
>> > $1400.00 per attempt.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I donb t see any announcement on the CCIE website for the price
>> > increase.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Is this just being quietly changed without an announcement?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Christopher M. Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
>> >
>> > Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > HYPERLINK "http://www.certified-labs.com/"www.certified-labs.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > b(*
>> >
>> >
>> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date:
>> > 10/3/2007 10:08 AM
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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>>
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>> _____________________________________________________________________
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>> 10:08 AM
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>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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>>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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