From: Bill Mckenzie (bmckenzie@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Oct 10 2007 - 17:29:43 ART
Study materials aren't a lock. You aren't issued workbooks, racktime or study
hours when you join. At that point it's like any other employer....they
support you but may not give you everything.Bill Mckenzie, CCIE#16725,
CCVP,CCSPSr. Network EngineerPhone: 614-425-2370 > To:
sheherezada@gmail.com> CC: ccielab@groupstudy.com> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price
Increase> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:13:52 +0100> From:
gary.duncanson@googlemail.com> > Will penalties simply encourage folks to
cheat or bend the rules to make > sure they get the 40 points though?> > Three
free attempts for cisco people? Is this an urban myth?> > Don't many of them
get enough help to get through as it is in terms of > support from work cost
and timewise? Labbooks, racks, study time on works > time, mentors, courses
etc?> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <sheherezada@gmail.com>> To:
"Scott Morris" <smorris@ipexpert.com>> Cc: "Burkett, Michael"
<Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com>; "Brad Ellis" > <brad@ccbootcamp.com>;
"Christopher M. Heffner" > <cheffner@certified-labs.com>; "Eric Dobyns"
<eric_dobyns@yahoo.com>; "Brian > Dennis" <bdennis@internetworkexpert.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>; > <security@groupstudy.com>;
<comserv@groupstudy.com>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 5:36 PM> Subject:
Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase> > > > Totally agree with you.> >> > Additionally,
let's take some costs into consideration. I think that> > the most cost
effective ways to free the queue and somehow to improve> > integrity would
be:> >> > 1) Introducing a penalty for the test takers that do not make at
least> > 40 points at their latest attempt (say wait 6 months)> > 2) Decrease
the number of free attempts for the Cisco employees (come> > on, three free
attempts seems too much)> >> > A troubleshooting section - or a interview with
the proctor - before> > even seeing the lab would be a good thing, I suppose,
but:> >> > 1) I was very disappointed by the troubleshooting I saw in my SP
exam> > - it was quite trivial to spot the errors. Mismatching the feature> >
set and the task was much more fun to figure out.> > 2) English is not a well
spoken language by many of us.> >> > Mihai> >> >> > On 10/10/07, Scott Morris
<smorris@ipexpert.com> wrote:> >> However, the concern over cheating and
sharing with the Assessor doesn't> >> give any DIFFERENT indicator, it just
puts an extra thing in the process.> >>> >> Cheating on the Assessor is
entirely possible as well, just like for the> >> CCIE lab.> >>> >> That's why
(my opinion) a more intense troubleshooting first stage exam> >> would yield
better measurement of someone's abilities. Troubleshooting > >> is> >> an art
form, you either know things or you don't.> >>> >> Just my thoughts!> >>> >>>
>> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, > >>
JNCIE-M> >> #153, CISSP, et al.> >> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER> >> VP - Technical
Training - IPexpert, Inc.> >> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor> >>> >> A
Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!> >>> >>
smorris@ipexpert.com> >>> >> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444> >> Fax:
+1.810.454.0130> >> http://www.ipexpert.com> >>> >>> >> -----Original
Message-----> >> From: Burkett, Michael [mailto:Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com]> >>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:19 AM> >> To: Brad Ellis;
smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric > >> Dobyns;> >> Brian
Dennis> >> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com; > >>
comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >>> >> If
you are talking about evaluating readiness before you are allowed to > >>
book> >> the real exam break the CCIE track into three parts.> >>> >> Step 1>
>> Pass CCIE Written Qualification Exam> >> Step 2> >> Pass Assessor Type
Exam, 2-3 hours, via remote equipment that can only be> >> accessed from you
local Cisco office, so no notes cannot be used, and its> >> monitored to keep
exam integrity. Don't pass this you can even schedule > >> the> >> Real Lab.>
>> Step 3> >> CCIE Lab Exam, with 60 days between attempts.> >>> >> Michael
Burkett> >> CCIE#17084> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From:
nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of > >> Brad>
>> Ellis> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:46 PM> >> To:
smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian > >> Dennis>
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com; > >>
comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >>
Scott,> >>> >> I understood what you were referring too; ie, someone's
readiness to take> >> the lab exam. I think the written exam should do a
better job of > >> reflecting> >> this "readiness" level.> >>> >> I'm waiting
to see that last "notch" that's going to be on top of the > >> CCIE.> >> Can
you imagine the wait time to schedule an exam for a review board run> >>
format? Could be a 2-3 year waiting period. :)> >>> >> thanks,> >> Brad Ellis>
>> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)> >> CCSI# 30482> >> CEO / President> >>
CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)> >> Email:
brad@ccbootcamp.com> >> Toll Free: 877-654-2243> >> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 =
Outside the USA> >> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call> >> FAX: +1-702-446-8012> >>
YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!> >> Training And Remote Racks:
http://www.ccbootcamp.com> >>> >> Register to win a free iPhone!
http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message----->
>> From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]> >> Sent: Tuesday, October
09, 2007 1:44 PM> >> To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns;
Brian Dennis> >> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com; > >>
comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >> I'm
not talking about the written/qualification exam. I'm talking about> >> when
someone goes into the lab!> >>> >> The written isn't supposed to be a measure
of someone ability at the lab.> >> It never was. It's always been a
differentiator between theory knowledge> >> and doing/application knowledge.>
>>> >> I'd keep the written the way it is. I actually like the new written
exam > >> (a> >> little too much EIGRP still, but all in all good). It's just
the 8-hour> >> timeframe in the lab that I would like to see changed, and
that's the > >> part> >> that is best suited for filtering anyway.> >>> >>
With all the testking, et al companies out there selling the exam and all> >>
the testing centers that you can go to, there's not any good way to > >>
control> >> people on that exam. So wait till they come in for the big one.
That's > >> the> >> "do or don't do" place.> >>> >>> >> Scott Morris, CCIE4
(R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, > >> JNCIE-M> >> #153, CISSP,
et al.> >> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER> >> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.>
>> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor> >>> >> A Cisco Learning Partner - We
Accept Learning Credits!> >>> >> smorris@ipexpert.com> >>> >> Telephone:
+1.810.326.1444> >> Fax: +1.810.454.0130> >> http://www.ipexpert.com> >>> >>>
>> -----Original Message-----> >> From: Brad Ellis
[mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:36 PM> >>
To: smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian> >>
Dennis> >> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;> >>
comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >>
Scott,> >>> >> I agree with you 100%. The main problem is the "qualification
exam" ie,> >> the> >> "written exam" isn't a very good measure of an
engineer's readiness to> >> attempt the lab exam. I think there needs to be a
legitimate> >> qualification> >> exam that truly can attest to the level of
the engineers competency. For> >> CCIE R&S, there used to be wireless on the
written exam.> >> Now there is MPLS on the written. Both technologies not
being covered by> >> the> >> lab exam. How is this an accurate measure of the
engineer's abilities to> >> attempt the lab exam? It's not! There needs to be
a more accurate> >> measurement in place. Once that happens, I think the wait
time between> >> attempts will diminish. I also think the length of time you
have to wait> >> between attempts should correlate to your last lab exam
score.> >> Opening up some more testing centers wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Just> >> my> >> $.02> >>> >> thanks,> >> Brad Ellis> >> CCIE#5796 (R&S /
Security)> >> CCSI# 30482> >> CEO / President> >> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco
Sponsored Organization (SO)> >> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com> >> Toll Free:
877-654-2243> >> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA> >> Skype:
skype:ccbootcamp?call> >> FAX: +1-702-446-8012> >> YES! We take Cisco Learning
Credits!> >> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com> >>> >>
Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html> >>> >>>
>> -----Original Message-----> >> From: Scott Morris
[mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:34 PM> >>
To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis> >> Cc:
ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;> >> comserv@groupstudy.com>
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >> If they want to make serious
progress in that idea, then they'll take a> >> different approach.> >>> >> 1.
Start with a troubleshooting lab. 1-2 hours. If you can't figure> >> enough
things out to fix, you obviously don't know what's going on and> >> shouldn't
get to the "real" lab.> >>> >> 2. Shorten the real lab to 6-7 hours. People
who don't make> >> troubleshooting won't even see the real thing and therefore
can't> >> possibly> >> copy/memorize it 'cause they went home early.> >>> >>
Taking the same lab again is only helpful if you've figured out the> >>
answers> >> and can actually make things work! But splitting things up like
this> >> will> >> give a higher test of people's deep understanding of
technologies rather> >> than any sort of memorization for stuff going on.> >>>
>> Just my thoughts. But raising the price or increasing the time between> >>
labs> >> will irritate more good people than it will deter the ones you are>
>> trying to> >> keep out.> >>> >> Some people know how things work, others do
not. Filter based on that!> >>> >> Just my two cents.> >>> >>> >> Scott
Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,> >> JNCIE-M> >>
#153, CISSP, et al.> >> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER> >> VP - Technical Training -
IPexpert, Inc.> >> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor> >>> >> A Cisco Learning
Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!> >>> >> smorris@ipexpert.com> >>> >>
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444> >> Fax: +1.810.454.0130> >>
http://www.ipexpert.com> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From:
nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of> >> Brad> >>
Ellis> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:40 PM> >> To: Christopher M.
Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis> >> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com;
security@groupstudy.com;> >> comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab
Price Increase> >>> >> It might suck, but that would definitely solve a bunch
of problems:> >>> >> 1) It would make it much harder for those "real test
sites" to get> >> updates> >> 2) The backlog wouldnb t be so bad - there would
be a lot more seats> >> available> >> 3) People would stop using the "take the
test every 30 days until I> >> pass"> >> technique. I know a few folks who
have taken the lab like that 8 or more> >> times until they pass. (This method
gives a high percentage of "same> >> lab"> >> possibilities.)> >>> >> thanks,>
>> Brad Ellis> >> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)> >> CCSI# 30482> >> CEO /
President> >> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)> >> Email:
brad@ccbootcamp.com> >> Toll Free: 877-654-2243> >> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 =
Outside the USA> >> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call> >> FAX: +1-702-446-8012> >>
YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!> >> Training And Remote Racks:
http://www.ccbootcamp.com> >>> >> Register to win a free iPhone!
http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message----->
>> From: Christopher M. Heffner [mailto:cheffner@certified-labs.com]> >> Sent:
Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:07 AM> >> To: Brad Ellis; Eric Dobyns; Brian
Dennis> >> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;> >>
comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >> Now
that would really "suck" big time!> >>> >> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI
98760> >> Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.> >>> >> www.certified-labs.com>
>>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: Brad Ellis
[mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:22 PM> >>
To: Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis> >> Cc:
ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;> >> comserv@groupstudy.com>
>> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >> I've heard that Cisco may
change their re-take policy from 30 days to 6> >> months for failed
tests...but just rumors so far.> >>> >> thanks,> >> Brad Ellis> >> CCIE#5796
(R&S / Security)> >> CCSI# 30482> >> CEO / President> >> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco
Sponsored Organization (SO)> >> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com> >> Toll Free:
877-654-2243> >> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA> >> Skype:
skype:ccbootcamp?call> >> FAX: +1-702-446-8012> >> YES! We take Cisco Learning
Credits!> >> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com> >>> >>
Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html> >>> >>>
>> -----Original Message-----> >> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
[mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of> >> Christopher M. Heffner> >>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 10:32 AM> >> To: Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis> >>
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;> >>
comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>
Importance: Low> >>> >> Please DON'T give them any ideas.> >>> >> This is an
expensive enough profession.> >>> >> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760> >>
Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.> >>> >> www.certified-labs.com> >>> >>> >>>
>> -----Original Message-----> >> From: Eric Dobyns
[mailto:eric_dobyns@yahoo.com]> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:43 PM> >>
To: 'Brian Dennis'; Christopher M. Heffner> >> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com;
security@groupstudy.com;> >> comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab
Price Increase> >>> >> Right now, I think they could charge twice that and
still fill up their> >> seats.> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From:
nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of> >> Brian
Dennis> >> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:22 PM> >> To: Christopher M.
Heffner> >> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;> >>
comserv@groupstudy.com> >> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase> >>> >>
Someone "announced" it here a few weeks ago ;-)> >>> >> Brian Dennis, CCIE4
#2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP)> >> bdennis@internetworkexpert.com> >>> >>
Internetwork Expert, Inc.> >> http://www.InternetworkExpert.com> >> Toll Free:
877-224-8987> >> Direct: 775-745-6404 (Outside the US and Canada)> >>> >>> >>>
>> On Oct 8, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Christopher M. Heffner wrote:> >>> >> > Did
anyone else notice the lab price increase made by Cisco for the> >> > CCIE
Labs?> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I noticed when checking lab dates that the price
for the lab is now> >> > $1400.00 per attempt.> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I donb
t see any announcement on the CCIE website for the price> >> > increase.> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Is this just being quietly changed without an
announcement?> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Christopher M. Heffner, CCIE
8211, CCSI 98760> >> >> >> > Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> > HYPERLINK "http://www.certified-labs.com/"www.certified-labs.com> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > b(*> >> >> >> >> >> > No virus found in this outgoing
message.> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.> >> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus
Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date:> >> > 10/3/2007 10:08 AM> >>> >>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Fri Nov 16 2007 - 13:11:13 ART