From: Gary Duncanson (gary.duncanson@googlemail.com)
Date: Wed Oct 10 2007 - 15:07:47 ART
It's a break from looking at vlan access-maps and vlan-filters.
hehehe..anyone who had an 18th level Magic User must have been a cheat.
That's way too many experience points! Monty haul dungeon masters!
----- Original Message -----
From: darth router
To: Gary Duncanson
Cc: swm@emanon.com ; ccielba@groupstudy.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: OT Re: !!!! Banned by Cisco !!!! [7:126999]
Been a while, I think we would have to consult the dungeon masters guide for
the absolute answer there. Scott, could you give us a hand? :)
DR
On 10/10/07, Gary Duncanson <gary.duncanson@googlemail.com> wrote:
If you got a natural 20 wasn't that 'double damage'? :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "darth router" <darklordrouter@gmail.com>
To: "Paul Dardinski" < pauld@marshallcomm.com>
Cc: "Scott Morris" <smorris@ipexpert.com>; "Darby Weaver"
< darbyweaver@yahoo.com>; <cisco@groupstudy.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: OT Re: !!!! Banned by Cisco !!!! [7:126999]
> Scott really gave himself away with the 20 sided dice thing. :P
>
> DR
>
> :)
>
> On 10/10/07, Paul Dardinski < pauld@marshallcomm.com> wrote:
>>
>> To be honest, the entire thing really doesn't make sense. A piece of
>> paper with an acl on it? Ur telling me someone actually snuck in an acl
>> and couldn't memorize it assuming somehow they were cheating?
>>
>> No, there is more to the story either way. I wouldn't imagine Cisco
>> would arbitrarily just go off and permanently remove someone unless it
>> was justified. I would assume there is some kind of appeals process,
but
>> again, I'd guess there is just more to this story then we are being
>> told.
>>
>> PD (#16842)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> Scott Morris
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:23 AM
>> To: 'Darby Weaver'; cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: OT Re: !!!! Banned by Cisco !!!! [7:126999]
>>
>> There are always options, not necessarily appeals. Like you point
out,
>> Cisco is not a government entity, and we are not required to have any
>> particular rights. We are making one of several choices to
voluntarily
>> participate in this program as well as signing the NDA as well as
>> agreeing
>> to the terms and conditions set out in the program.
>>
>> Just like any problem that cannot be solved at the lowest level, if
one
>> feels something is wrong in their case (not a Ralph Nader-type
approach
>> for
>> consumer rights), then go up the food chain. Everyone has bosses.
Now,
>> I
>> would not recommend sending John Chambers an e-mail, but if this
person
>> has
>> done wrong and has a relationship with a local Cisco SE, I'm sure they
>> can
>> figure out someone in the food chain who would be appropriate to
strike
>> up a
>> conversation with at a professional level.
>>
>> On the other hand, especially being in the USA, I'm sure you've seen
the
>> TV
>> show COPS. If you try to handle yourself unprofessionally, don't
expect
>> a
>> professional response. But either way, it's not OUR place. The rules
>> are
>> set out pretty clear, that's all that Cisco is required to disclose to
>> us.
>> We know them, don't violate them and there won't be a problem.
>>
>> Would it make you feel better if someone from Cisco came out and said
>> that
>> there was no appeals process, that they actually used a 20-sided dice
to
>> figure out someone's fate? What would you do then? While it may seem
>> amusing (at least if you haven't broken any rules), the idea of our
>> being
>> involved in the process is still the same. We are not.
>>
>> Sure, we can speak our minds if we want, but this is not a democratic
>> process. When policies change, we have to deal with those as well. A
>> couple of years ago when they changed the recertification process, I
>> actually got screwed out of three years of recert. But there wasn't
>> much to
>> do about it. I suppose I could have decided to forego the entire
>> program in
>> protest, but other than people looking at me funny, what would it have
>> accomplished?
>>
>> If you have political rights, by all means exercise them. But that's
>> government. This is business. Short of Cisco violating some rule of
>> law
>> (and no, due process is not guaranteed in instances like these)
there's
>> not
>> much to do. A civil lawsuit can always be filed, but I can imagine
>> that's
>> really not the best way to win friends and influence people. :)
>>
>> Somehow I'm thinking the "all for one and one for all" mentality will
>> watch
>> you chasing things on your on Don Quixote. (and yes, I know those are
>> two
>> completely different stories)
>>
>> For your movie analogy, are you talking about "V for Vendetta" or the
>> "V" in
>> which people eat rats?
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Darby Weaver [mailto: darbyweaver@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:56 AM
>> To: smorris@ipexpert.com; cisco@groupstudy.com ;
ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: OT Re: !!!! Banned by Cisco !!!! [7:126999]
>>
>> The real question is if anyone of us stands accused, what rights, if
>> any, do
>> we have as customers.
>>
>> If the guy is guilty, then so be it, don't do the crime if you can't
do
>> the
>> time.
>>
>> However, if a person is innocent, then what?
>>
>> Quietly get dragged to the gallows... to be summarily charged and
>> swiftly
>> executed, never to be heard from again.
>>
>> Reminds me of a scene in the movie "V".
>>
>> As long as one person is denied, we are all denied, one and all.
>>
>> Now if we have no rights, or rights to any review of any sort, that's
>> fine.
>>
>>
>> Let's just be clear about it, up front, and open.
>>
>> No harm in that.
>>
>> If an appeal is not for us to know about, exactly who else should know
>> about
>> it?
>>
>> We are the a large community of Cisco CCIE people and we are directly
>> affected by any policy or lack theereof, that the Cisco CCIE program
may
>> wish, at their sole discretion, afford us.
>>
>> From the way the letter reads, I get the feeling the appeals are over
>> and so
>> was the process. There are reasons why the "note" was not disclosed
for
>> obvious reasons. The program lives and dies by the NDA. No argument.
>>
>> However, if a person stands accused, at least in my country, the USA,
a
>> person is usually allowed to face his accuser.
>>
>> Now Cisco is not a country and is a private entity,, no doubt about it,
>> Cisco is not bound by this.
>>
>> But again what can a person who believes himself/herself innocent and
>> free
>> from all doubt do?
>>
>> You mentioned there are always appeals...
>>
>> Exactly, what are they?
>>
>> I, for one, have never seen such a process published.
>> Now, to be fair, Cisco may not have one, want one, or perceive the
need
>> to
>> ever have one. Fine.
>>
>> Let's just clear the air and say it as such, one way or the other.
>>
>> This forum is just a means of communications and this ia a very
>> important
>> matter - you should see the number of relative posts and this little
>> issue
>> has created.
>>
>> I believe the CCIE Community does care and if there is a process, then
>> they
>> aka "us" would probably like to know it.
>>
>> There are step-by-step processes on how to open an email on the
>> Internet...
>>
>>
>> Why not how to appeal a process, that stands to risk a lot of our
>> hard-earned money, time, and reputation is even remotely falsely
>> accused.
>>
>>
>> So, is there a process?
>>
>> 1. Yes
>> 2. No
>>
>> If so, what is it? If not, then as long as it is stated and
understood
>> to
>> be so, and we are all clear on the matter. Great.
>>
>> However, I would have thought there was no process.
>> But now I am inclined to beleive their may be one.
>>
>> What is it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Scott Morris <smorris@ipexpert.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I think the point Chris is making is that it seems to be something
>> > between Hitesh and Cisco. If you fight hard enough, there are always
>> > appeals processes, but that is something that's up to him to pursue
>> > and not for us to debate.
>> >
>> > We can all get fired up about it and decide how unfair life is, and
>> > perhaps after reading the thread below decide that Hitesh is being
>> > wronged by someone lying and has no recourse, but the bottom line is
>> > that other than the e-mail presented to us we have absolutely no idea
>> > what did or did not happen there.
>> >
>> > While I think it is great that Cisco takes all these things very
>> > seriously, and has some fairly serious repercussions for those who
>> > violate the rules of conduct (that we all sign in agreement to), I
>> > also know that they take their investigations fairly seriously and
are
>>
>> > not just going to jump in with that harsh of a punishment if it were
>> > not warranted.
>> >
>> > While Cisco cares about what we think, it is not their policy to
>> > involve the general public in an internal security matter. We do
not
>> > get to be a jury of Hitesh's peers. If he wants that sort of
>> > consideration, then there are always civil legal remedies which he
>> > could pursue.
>> >
>> > Why should we be asking how arbitrary the process is? It's kinda
like
>>
>> > asking how arbitary the grading process is. Did the proctor not
like
>> > the way my hair was combed that day, or did I not smile enough or
say
>> > "Good Morning" fast enough?
>> >
>> > If we all spend time worrying about things that:
>> >
>> > 1. We can't possibly know or assume anyway 2. We can't possibly
>> > control either 3. We can't know whether it's simply our cosmic karma
>> > instead of Cisco's policy anyway
>> >
>> > Then we're just going to get stressed out for no particular reason.
>> > Concentrate on the studying, take the test, be professional, and life
>> > will be good. If anyone here individually becomes involved with
>> > something like outlined below, THEN they obviously have a right to
be
>> > upset/concerned/whatever and then they will truly know the facts
>> > involved with it. Until then, we are all simply bystanders in the
>> > game and seeing one (potentially jilted) side of the story.
>> >
>> > I've been around the CCIE program, and know many of the people
>> > involved, and I can assure you that I have no reason to believe
there
>> > is any arbitrary treatment of situations like this occurring.
>> >
>> > Just my thoughts...
>> >
>> >
>> > Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service
>> > Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M
>> > #153, CISSP, et al.
>> > CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
>> > VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
>> > IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>> >
>> > A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>> >
>> > smorris@ipexpert.com
>> >
>> > Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
>> > Fax: +1.810.454.0130
>> > http://www.ipexpert.com
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
>> > [mailto: nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Darby Weaver
>> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 3:02 AM
>> > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com; cisco@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: OT: Re: !!!! Banned by Cisco !!!!
>> > [7:126999]
>> >
>> > Chris,
>> >
>> > Contrar my friend. I have seen personally that the CCIE Developement
>> > team does watch these this forum with interest and with intent.
>> >
>> > They do care about the program.
>> >
>> > They do care about what we think - we are something like a
customer...
>>
>> > old fashioned concept.
>> >
>> >
>> > Now from what I have read thus far, our friend was apparently
>> > confronted about this incident in the lab.
>> > As was at least one other person. So the proctor had his reasons no
>> > doubt for thinking as he did.
>> >
>> > This is very serious and could affect the way we enter the lab exam
in
>>
>> > the future.
>> >
>> > Apparently a "note" or "notes" were found and those notes were "not
on
>>
>> > the paper given by the proctors".
>> >
>> > Now if our friend here is innocent and did not bring notes to the
lab,
>>
>> > that is one thing.
>> >
>> > If he he did, then it is another.
>> >
>> > The problem is what can a person do if he/she did not bring notes
but
>> > were accused of doing so?
>> >
>> >
>> > There really is very little recourse.
>> >
>> > However, we as CCIE candidates want to believe in the integrity of
the
>>
>> > program as a whole and in our proctors.
>> >
>> > I, for one, have always found the proctors to be very professional
and
>>
>> > very helpful.
>> >
>> > This person is concerned about his career and should be, since this
is
>>
>> > a serious offense.
>> >
>> > Cisco is concerned about the integrity of the entire CCIE program, as
>> > we all should be.
>> >
>> > From the treads I've read up to know, and I've seen the email chain,
>> > the Cisco Security Team probably have a strong case and it seems they
>> > took a little while to properly weigh the options.
>> >
>> > Banning someone for life and stripping all certs is pretty serious.
>> >
>> > The question we all should be asking is "how arbitrary is the
>> > process"?
>> >
>> > Even if a student is expelled for cheating from a College Campus,
they
>>
>> > still have some rights.
>> >
>> > Cisco makes their case clear - break the rules and you are banned for
>> > life - per the lastest CCIE update.
>> >
>> > It is their program, but it is also ours. We all have significant
>> > investments in time and money too.
>> >
>> > The vendors here have incredible amounts invested.
>> >
>> > Everyone who takes the time and commits the effort has a lot
invested.
>> >
>> >
>> > While we do not want to give cheaters any breaks, we still should
want
>>
>> > a fair process.
>> >
>> > However, I still think the CCIE Proctors would never risk their
>> > integrity or career on making such a mistake and the situation is
>> > probably well-founded.
>> >
>> > Remember, what are the odds that 4 people taking the lab have the
same
>>
>> > lab or even are taking the same track for that matter.
>> >
>> > So...
>> >
>> > Just sitting around not sleeping and decided to chime in.
>> >
>> > All any of has is an opinion.
>> >
>> > Since only a few people were there, only those folks know the facts.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- Chris Tevlin <nobody@groupstudy.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hitesh,
>> > >
>> > > I'm unclear what you hope to gain by posting
>> > this thread here. It
>> > > seems to me that there isn't any member of this
>> > study group that can
>> > > directly influence the decision made by Cisco
>> > Systems. Under the
>> > > circumstances, I find the practice of posting your
>> > dialog with Cisco a
>> > > bit distasteful. You are certainly free to post
>> > what you'd like, but
>> > > know that public opinion is a double-edged sword;
>> > you may not achieve
>> > > much sympathy. If you truly feel that you have
>> > been unfairly accused,
>> > > you must appeal to the decision authority
>> > directly. Keep in mind that
>> > > your conduct inside the exam is what has been
>> > called into question,
>> > > but your conduct outside of the exam is also
>> > likely to matter if any
>> > > further consideration is undertaken by Cisco.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > >
>> > > Chris
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ""Hitesh Panchani"" wrote in message
>> > > news: 200710091607.l99G7jHU002598@groupstudy.com...
>> > > > sad.gif
>> > > > BANNED BY CISCO
>> > > > sad.gif
>> > > >
>> > > > I was told by forum in Sadikhov to post my
>> > problem
>> > > here.
>> > > >
>> > > > I did CCIE lab exam and not receiving result
>> > with
>> > > in 48 hr so I contact
>> > > > Cisco support desk. They told me I didn't done
>> > lab
>> > > yet. I told them this
>> > > > is
>> > > > my 3rd attempt for lab and I couldnb?Tt receive
>> > my
>> > > result yet. It is more
>> > > > then 48hr and I couldnb?Tt receive my result and
>> > I
>> > > couldnb?Tt open my CCIE
>> > > > login. Cisco did open my case cert case. Told by
>> > > helpdesk some one will
>> > > > contact in 48hr but still no contact in 48hr so
>> > I
>> > > did contact Cisco again
>> > > > they said there is database have problem your
>> > case
>> > > is passed to IT staff
>> > > > and
>> > > > they will take 5 working days to respond. AS
>> > soon
>> > > as database fix will
>> > > > give
>> > > > you update. After 5 days they didn't contact so
>> > I
>> > > made contact again and
>> > > > helpdesk told me Head of IT is dealing with your
>> > > case and it took 7 days
>> > > > to
>> > > > investigate why database is missing. I made
>> > > contact after 7days then Cisco
>> > > > helpdesk says your case is in security officer
>> > > they will contact in 10
>> > > > day.
>> > > > So we are closing your case now and you have to
>> > > wait for security team
>> > > > response they will send you mail or letter. I
>> > > received mail from CISCO as
>> > > > below:
>> > > >
>> > > > Via Federal Express and [Electronic Mail]
>> > > >
>> > > > Hitesh
>> > > > Candidate ID 207489284
>> > > > *******@hotmail.com
>> > > >
>> > > > Address
>> > > > United Kingdom, Europe
>> > > >
>> > > > Re: Violation of CCIE Candidate Conduct
>> > > Policy-Possession of notes during
>> > > > exam
>> > > >
>> > > > Dear Hitesh,
>> > > > I am writing to you on behalf of Cisco, Inc.
>> > > (b?oCiscob? ). It has come
>> > > > to
>> > > > our attention that on September 9th 2007 your
>> > CCIE
>> > > Lab exam proctor
>> > > > discovered notes regarding exam question
>> > > configurations at your assigned
>> > > > testing station. The proctor reported that
>> > upon
>> > > confronting you with
>> > > > these
>> > > > notes that you admitted they belonged to you.
>> > As
>> > > you should be aware,
>> > > > possession of notes during testing is a
>> > violation
>> > > of the Candidate Conduct
>> > > > Policy which states:
>> > > >
>> > > > b?oNo candidate will take any action that will
>> > > compromise the integrity or
>> > > > confidentiality of a Cisco Certification
>> > > examination or otherwise
>> > > > compromise
>> > > > the integrity of the Cisco Certification
>> > program.
>> > > Such actions include but
>> > > > are not limited to:
>> > > > Using any aids, notes, equipment or other
>> > > materials not authorized by the
>> > > > TestingDelivery Partners or Cisco during the
>> > > exam.b?
>> > > >
>> > > > You signed a Cisco Career Certification and
>> > > Confidentiality Agreement
>> > > > that
>> > > > prior to your exam. To paraphrase this
>> > agreement,
>> > > Cisco may at its sole
>> > > > discretion revoke any and all Certifications you
>> > > may have earned, and
>> > > > permanently ban you from earning future
>> > > Certifications if Cisco
>> > > > determines,
>> > > > in its sole discretion, that you have undertaken
>> > > or participated in any
>> > > > action that compromises the integrity and
>> > > confidentiality of an
>> > > > examination
>> > > > or the Program.
>> > > >
>> > > > As a result, you are hereby permanently
>> > prohibited
>> > > from taking any Cisco
>> > > > examinations, including CCIE written and
>> > > laboratory examinations, and any
>> > > > Cisco certifications with VUE, Ciscob?Ts
>> > > Authorized Testing Delivery
>> > > > Partner. Access to your candidate records in
>> > the
>> > > Certifications Tracking
>> > > > System is also denied.
>> > > >
>> > > > The intention of Cisco career certifications is
>> > to
>> > > ensure high standards
>> > > > of
>> > > > technical expertise. Achieving Cisco
>> > > certificationb?"at any levelb?"means
>> > > > joining the ranks of skilled network
>> > professionals
>> > > who have earned
>> > > > recognition and respect in the industry.
>> > > Maintaining the integrity of
>> > > > Cisco
>> > > > certification programs and ensuring that only
>> > > qualified individuals
>> > > > receive
>> > > > certification is in the interest of everyone.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you for your cooperation.
>> > > > Sincerely,
>> > > > Kathe Saccenti, CCIE 2099
>> > > > Mgr, Operations - Labs
>> > > > Learning@Cisco.com
>> > > > Cc: VQS JW
>> > > >
>> > > > REPLY FROM CISCO AFTER I REPLAYED TO ABOVE EMAIL
>> > > >
>> > > > As I stated in the letter I sent you, we reserve
>> > > the right to deny
>> > > > testing to individuals that violate our
>> > policies.
>> > > > The report and the evidence submitted,
>> > correspond
>> > > fully to your
>> > > > configurations.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > From: Hp***** [mailto:hp*****@hotmail.com]
>> > > > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 7:16 AM
>> > > > To: Kathe Saccenti (ksaccent)
>> > > > Subject: Re: CCIE Notification
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi Kathe
>> > > >
>> > > > I deny any wrong doing with any cisco
>> > > certification. I was called up by
>> > > > the proctor after he had called the other
>> > > candidate first, he presented
>> > > > me with a piece of paper, said to be found on my
>> > > desk. I denied it
>> > > > immediately as I would be cheating with myself
>> > > first. Proctor mention
>> > > > there was a "access list" on that piece of
>> > paper,
>> > > to which I said "can I
>> > > > see it" reply "no" at some point in proctor
>> > > mention that "if it not
>> > > > your, you do not need to worry about it", at
>> > that
>> > > point I left the
>> > > > building. Proctor told me that somebody will
>> > > contact me within 48hrs
>> > > > will contact me, which never happen, that why I
>> > > raised the ticket
>> > > > (070911-000286)on 11 Sep 2007, not knowing what
>> > > department to contact I
>> > > > started the general query.
>> > > >
>> > > > I left my work in NOV 2006 to pursuit my long
>> > term
>> > > plan of obtaining the
>> > > > CCIE. I have been planning to become CCIE since
>> > > 2000 and gradually
>> > > > getting closer to my goal (my life achievement).
>> >
>> > > If you look at your
>> > > > records, this was my third attempt, and I was
>> > > willing to one more
>> > > > attempt before giving it up. The concept of
>> > these
>> > > labs is to understand
>> > > > the technology first and later configuration
>> > > command.
>> > > >
>> > > > I realised the importance of the standards set
>> > by
>> > > the CCIE
>> > > > qualification. I would appreciate if you would
>> > > reconsider your decision.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Regards
>> > > >
>> > > > Hitesh
>> >
>> >
>>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Fri Nov 16 2007 - 13:11:13 ART