From: Scott Morris (smorris@ipexpert.com)
Date: Wed Oct 10 2007 - 14:05:31 ART
Troubleshooting with your startup configs is different than what I'd
propose.
I propose that you are given an entirely configured network, but presented
that "something" (whatever specifics they want) is not working and needs to
be fixed.
People either understand or they don't. People can either look at the
existing network and get a grasp of what IS happening versus what is NOT
happening or they can't.
That is much more involved than the startup-config troubleshooting process.
And if someone can't understand the technologies enough to figure things
out, then they don't even get to see the "current" type of lab to start it.
I think with a fully configured network and the idea of something not
working, there is little room for english-or-not translation errors because
all you are given is a statement of fact and you have to figure out the
rest.
When you get to the current kind of lab, then you can get back to the choice
of words problems! (They try to not make this a problem, but it doesn't
always work)
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE-M
#153, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
smorris@ipexpert.com
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.810.454.0130
http://www.ipexpert.com
-----Original Message-----
From: sheherezada@gmail.com [mailto:sheherezada@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:36 PM
To: Scott Morris
Cc: Burkett, Michael; Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian
Dennis; ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
comserv@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
Totally agree with you.
Additionally, let's take some costs into consideration. I think that the
most cost effective ways to free the queue and somehow to improve integrity
would be:
1) Introducing a penalty for the test takers that do not make at least 40
points at their latest attempt (say wait 6 months)
2) Decrease the number of free attempts for the Cisco employees (come on,
three free attempts seems too much)
A troubleshooting section - or a interview with the proctor - before even
seeing the lab would be a good thing, I suppose, but:
1) I was very disappointed by the troubleshooting I saw in my SP exam
- it was quite trivial to spot the errors. Mismatching the feature set and
the task was much more fun to figure out.
2) English is not a well spoken language by many of us.
Mihai
On 10/10/07, Scott Morris <smorris@ipexpert.com> wrote:
> However, the concern over cheating and sharing with the Assessor
> doesn't give any DIFFERENT indicator, it just puts an extra thing in the
process.
>
> Cheating on the Assessor is entirely possible as well, just like for
> the CCIE lab.
>
> That's why (my opinion) a more intense troubleshooting first stage
> exam would yield better measurement of someone's abilities.
> Troubleshooting is an art form, you either know things or you don't.
>
> Just my thoughts!
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> JNCIE-M #153, CISSP, et al.
> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>
> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>
> smorris@ipexpert.com
>
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> http://www.ipexpert.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Burkett, Michael [mailto:Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:19 AM
> To: Brad Ellis; smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric
> Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
>
> If you are talking about evaluating readiness before you are allowed
> to book the real exam break the CCIE track into three parts.
>
> Step 1
> Pass CCIE Written Qualification Exam
> Step 2
> Pass Assessor Type Exam, 2-3 hours, via remote equipment that can only
> be accessed from you local Cisco office, so no notes cannot be used,
> and its monitored to keep exam integrity. Don't pass this you can even
> schedule the Real Lab.
> Step 3
> CCIE Lab Exam, with 60 days between attempts.
>
> Michael Burkett
> CCIE#17084
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Brad Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:46 PM
> To: smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian
> Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Scott,
>
> I understood what you were referring too; ie, someone's readiness to
> take the lab exam. I think the written exam should do a better job of
> reflecting this "readiness" level.
>
> I'm waiting to see that last "notch" that's going to be on top of the
CCIE.
> Can you imagine the wait time to schedule an exam for a review board
> run format? Could be a 2-3 year waiting period. :)
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:44 PM
> To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> I'm not talking about the written/qualification exam. I'm talking
> about when someone goes into the lab!
>
> The written isn't supposed to be a measure of someone ability at the lab.
> It never was. It's always been a differentiator between theory
> knowledge and doing/application knowledge.
>
> I'd keep the written the way it is. I actually like the new written
> exam (a little too much EIGRP still, but all in all good). It's just
> the 8-hour timeframe in the lab that I would like to see changed, and
> that's the part that is best suited for filtering anyway.
>
> With all the testking, et al companies out there selling the exam and
> all the testing centers that you can go to, there's not any good way
> to control people on that exam. So wait till they come in for the big
> one. That's the "do or don't do" place.
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> JNCIE-M #153, CISSP, et al.
> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>
> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>
> smorris@ipexpert.com
>
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> http://www.ipexpert.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Ellis [mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:36 PM
> To: smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian
> Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Scott,
>
> I agree with you 100%. The main problem is the "qualification exam"
> ie, the "written exam" isn't a very good measure of an engineer's
> readiness to attempt the lab exam. I think there needs to be a
> legitimate qualification exam that truly can attest to the level of
> the engineers competency. For CCIE R&S, there used to be wireless on
> the written exam.
> Now there is MPLS on the written. Both technologies not being covered
> by the lab exam. How is this an accurate measure of the engineer's
> abilities to attempt the lab exam? It's not! There needs to be a more
> accurate measurement in place. Once that happens, I think the wait
> time between attempts will diminish. I also think the length of time
> you have to wait between attempts should correlate to your last lab
> exam score.
> Opening up some more testing centers wouldn't be a bad idea either.
> Just my
> $.02
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:34 PM
> To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> If they want to make serious progress in that idea, then they'll take
> a different approach.
>
> 1. Start with a troubleshooting lab. 1-2 hours. If you can't figure
> enough things out to fix, you obviously don't know what's going on and
> shouldn't get to the "real" lab.
>
> 2. Shorten the real lab to 6-7 hours. People who don't make
> troubleshooting won't even see the real thing and therefore can't
> possibly copy/memorize it 'cause they went home early.
>
> Taking the same lab again is only helpful if you've figured out the
> answers and can actually make things work! But splitting things up
> like this will give a higher test of people's deep understanding of
> technologies rather than any sort of memorization for stuff going on.
>
> Just my thoughts. But raising the price or increasing the time
> between labs will irritate more good people than it will deter the
> ones you are trying to keep out.
>
> Some people know how things work, others do not. Filter based on that!
>
> Just my two cents.
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> JNCIE-M #153, CISSP, et al.
> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>
> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>
> smorris@ipexpert.com
>
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> http://www.ipexpert.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Brad Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:40 PM
> To: Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> It might suck, but that would definitely solve a bunch of problems:
>
> 1) It would make it much harder for those "real test sites" to get
> updates
> 2) The backlog wouldnb t be so bad - there would be a lot more seats
> available
> 3) People would stop using the "take the test every 30 days until I
> pass"
> technique. I know a few folks who have taken the lab like that 8 or
> more times until they pass. (This method gives a high percentage of
> "same lab"
> possibilities.)
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher M. Heffner [mailto:cheffner@certified-labs.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:07 AM
> To: Brad Ellis; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Now that would really "suck" big time!
>
> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
> Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
>
> www.certified-labs.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Ellis [mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:22 PM
> To: Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> I've heard that Cisco may change their re-take policy from 30 days to
> 6 months for failed tests...but just rumors so far.
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Christopher M. Heffner
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 10:32 AM
> To: Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> Importance: Low
>
> Please DON'T give them any ideas.
>
> This is an expensive enough profession.
>
> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
> Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
>
> www.certified-labs.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Dobyns [mailto:eric_dobyns@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:43 PM
> To: 'Brian Dennis'; Christopher M. Heffner
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Right now, I think they could charge twice that and still fill up
> their seats.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Brian Dennis
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:22 PM
> To: Christopher M. Heffner
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Someone "announced" it here a few weeks ago ;-)
>
> Brian Dennis, CCIE4 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP)
> bdennis@internetworkexpert.com
>
> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
> http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
> Toll Free: 877-224-8987
> Direct: 775-745-6404 (Outside the US and Canada)
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Christopher M. Heffner wrote:
>
> > Did anyone else notice the lab price increase made by Cisco for the
> > CCIE Labs?
> >
> >
> >
> > I noticed when checking lab dates that the price for the lab is now
> > $1400.00 per attempt.
> >
> >
> >
> > I donb t see any announcement on the CCIE website for the price
> > increase.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this just being quietly changed without an announcement?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Christopher M. Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
> >
> > Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> > HYPERLINK "http://www.certified-labs.com/"www.certified-labs.com
> >
> >
> >
> > b(*
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date:
> > 10/3/2007 10:08 AM
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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> b(*
>
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>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/comserv.html
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> 10:08 AM
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>
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> 10:08 AM
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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> ______________________________________________________________________
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