From: Gary Duncanson (gary.duncanson@googlemail.com)
Date: Fri Sep 14 2007 - 12:56:04 ART
Companies have mostly paid big $$$ for software in my experience. The
network providing transport for the services it delivers. Software
employs/presents those services. Even IOS is software.
TCO loves to keep operational wages down. A lot of the technologies we have
learned over the years has had a 'reduced cost' spin on it someplace. With
thin client, virtualisation, offshoring, co-location, super relience and god
knows what else there are real pressures on support wages. Add to which many
people running firms still don't really 'get' technology. They are however
constantly adviced by 'gurus' who bang on about the benefits of technology,
usually on the grounds of reduced cost. Sure that includes wages. In many
organisations infrastructure in itself isn't highly valued, it is
increasingly taken as a given.
All that said, most companies do have someone in a senior position who
understands how important the things you mention are to the bottom line of
the company and that they need investment. I have worked for a few companies
like that.
Where companies do develop their own software such as financial trading
instruments I find the added value of being able to provide reference models
for ORT testing and troubleshooting skills to application/network problems
very helpful to my personal bottom line. It's very important to be diverse
and to embrace what your company is about. We live in a time when fewer
shops have infrastructure and we have more CCIE's than ever before. A lot of
infrastructure is going into 'big box' outsourced datacentres competing on
price. The day's of getting certificates and sitting high paid and snotty on
top of a big network are mostly over I'm afraid. I know most of us don't
operate in that manner but a few did in the past and business has had the
squeeze on us ever since so we really have to sell ourselves and what we can
bring to the party.
Even so there is still money in the industry if you move with the times and
in some cases, move, quite literally.
All that said, you can still be well respected even if you don't earn big
bucks as many fine teachers and medical practitioners will attest!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
To: "'Gary Duncanson'" <gary.duncanson@googlemail.com>
Cc: "'Marc La Porte'" <marc.a.laporte@gmail.com>; "'darth router'"
<darklordrouter@gmail.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Service Provider jobs vs Enterprise
>I used to think this way Gary...
>
> But here is my problem. Companies pay big $$$ for software. Because
> software
> is visible, it's on the desktop, and it's not "back in the closet" where
> no
> one sees it. It's not the salary I'm concerned with. It's the respect and
> attention of the business. They need to understand that their network is
> even MORE critical than their applications. Their applications won't work
> at
> all without a well built, well functioning, well managed network.
>
> I consulted at a $65 Billion dollar hedge-fund management firm on Park
> Ave.
> They have NO full time network anything, (not even a ccna). They are a
> global firm, whose business day (and network) never stops. They have
> plenty
> of PM's, software developers, Q&A people, etc.
>
> Why doesn't this kind of company have a network staff, despite having a
> large Cisco based network with 6500's etc...
>
> Because they don't understand or care about networking. "Its just there".
>
> We parted ways.
>
> The only way you can see how much you are respected is by how much you are
> paid. It's sad it has come to this. How can you feel good about working
> somewhere you and what you do are not valued by the organization?
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Duncanson [mailto:gary.duncanson@googlemail.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:44 AM
> To: Joseph Brunner
> Cc: Marc La Porte; darth router; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: Service Provider jobs vs Enterprise
>
>
> I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Many companies simply don't want to pay
> the
>
> six figures a good number of us earn and some of them still make good
> hires.
>
> To that I will add that you will find a good number of VERY capable people
> working on wages you would turn your nose up at. When it comes to salaries
> personal circumstances as well as location often come into play as does
> the
> size of the company sometimes.
>
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Brunner" <joe@affirmedsystems.com>
> To: "'Marc La Porte'" <marc.a.laporte@gmail.com>
> Cc: "'darth router'" <darklordrouter@gmail.com>; "'Cisco certification'"
> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:57 PM
> Subject: RE: Service Provider jobs vs Enterprise
>
>
>> Then they aren't serious. If you pay $80k you get $80k's worth of senior
>> network guy. As a consultant I go to a new company almost every month, so
>> I
>> see it all. The people I find making around that much, have left the
>> place
>> in such shambles and know so little, well the management brings in me....
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> Marc
>> La Porte
>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 8:29 AM
>> To: Joseph Brunner
>> Cc: darth router; Cisco certification
>> Subject: Re: Service Provider jobs vs Enterprise
>>
>> Would you considering Amsterdam a major city?
>> If I say 60k (euro) / 80k ($) then most employers will laugh at me
>>
>> Marc
>> CCNP/CCDP/CCIP/CCSP
>> CCIE R&S Candidate
>> 9 years of experience in support, design, consultancy and sales
>>
>>
>> On 9/14/07, Joseph Brunner <joe@affirmedsystems.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Where are you located? 100k? We have help desk staff that make that!
>>>
>>> Are you kidding? The CCIE is worth about 170k plus 30% bonus...
>>>
>>> Move to a major city (NYC, LONDON, BERLIN)
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>>> darth router
>>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:31 AM
>>> To: Cisco certification
>>> Subject: Service Provider jobs vs Enterprise
>>>
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> I have worked at a small ISP (about 20k customers). I was not payed all
>>> that
>>> well. Now I have a CCIE, and am wondering do the service provider jobs
>>> pay
>>> vs the Enterprise jobs? I would love to get around 100k, and not have to
>>> travel. It seems that the majory of CCIE jobs I see on the various jobs
>>> sites all pay around 100k, some more some a little less. The CCIE gets
>>> you
>>> treated pretty well if you work for a cisco reseller. Can anyone tell me
>>> the
>>> pros and cons to working for a service provider with a CCIE? Are there
>>> still
>>> a lot of service providers that even want CCIEs? from the very limited
>>> view
>>> I have on service providers it seems like many are moving away from
>>> cisco
>>> gear in favor of other vendors. I would love some advice here. I just
>>> got
>>> my
>>> CCIE and I feel like I am just starting to finally get somewhere in my
>>> career. I want my next job to the the right job, and a job I want to
>>> stick
>>> with for some years.
>>>
>>>
>>> DR
>>>
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>>
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