From: Scott Morris (smorris@ipexpert.com)
Date: Thu Sep 13 2007 - 09:00:35 ART
The value of the CCIE or the person is always what they make of it. Any
test can be passed with a "minimum" level of preparation, but who does that
help?
As for the experience, it's a recommendation to make things easier. The
career certifications (NA/NP/etc.) were designed as stepping stones to help
build experience and knowledge. They aren't required for the CCIE, just
helpful. Any of the "really old" guys did CCIE without any NA/NP stuff.
Those weren't even invented until I was mostly done with my studies for the
IE.
The problem isn't in things becoming any easier, it's in how people approach
it. And unfortunately, any time you see something that offers the ability
for someone to get into a successful career, that will attract many people
to it. Some will truly fit the mold, others will not. This isn't any
different than most areas of life.
Someone once told me that we don't see problems like this with doctors.
First, that isn't entirely true, but even aside from that... To become a
doctor the layout of $$ is significantly higher than that of a CCIE! I'm
hoping Cisco doesn't raise the price to that level, although that would weed
out many people. :)
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: subodh.rawat@wipro.com [mailto:subodh.rawat@wipro.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:32 AM
To: smorris@ipexpert.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com; joe@affirmedsystems.com;
Seonghui@vads.com; darklordrouter@gmail.com; shiranp3@gmail.com
Subject: RE: All numbers are beutiful ...but below 7000 have something
special
I would definitely love to do my CCIE. Hopefully next April.
My thought was what is the value CCIE holding these days. Cisco recommends
(recommends) that if you are going for CCIE then you should have around 3
years of relevant experience and should do CCNA + CCNP (for R&S).
Now we can see people are doing CCIE even with out having a year of
experience and without even CCNA. I have 2-3 people who did CCIE without
having any experience and CCNA.
This makes me thinking that CCIE now is easier than those 2 days lab.
I interviewed one candidate yesterday. He was very confident in the
beginning and said that he had completed first 3 labs of IE WB 4.x. So I
started gradually.
But he was stunned on the questions I asked from him. He could not answer a
single question. He could not answer simple basic questions like STP (3
switches connected with trunks, what will be the final loop free diagram),
Admin Distance (like OSPF and ISIS are adverting same destination network,
which one will be preferred). Who knows after 3 months , he can be one of
Beautiful # after completing all Workbook Labs.
And fun came in the last when he said DNS is UDP. When I said that DNS is
UDP and TCP both; can you imagine what he replied; he said it depends. If
you are using Microsft then it is UDP otherwise TCP
(LOL.....)
Again a thought.....Surely, I really appreciate people who do CCIE (even
now) because it is definitely not as simple as CCNA or CCNP but again the
question is what is the value CCIEs have now.
Subodh
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:31 AM
To: 'Joseph Brunner'; 'Seonghui'; 'darth router'; 'shiran guez'
Cc: Subodh Singh Rawat (WT01 - TELECOM SERVICE PROVIDER);
ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: All numbers are beutiful ...but below 7000 have something
special
The funny thing was that people were complaining just the opposite back
then... How there were too few dates and that the two-day lab wasn't
necessary.
*shrug* Can't win....
There are ways that things could be made more "interesting" in the lab
format, but wouldn't people just complain then too?
True, way back when we didn't have workbooks to challenge us. It was just
ourselves, the equipment, the DocCD and our own warped sense of humor. Was
that harder? Not necessarily. It was just different.
I would like to think that the vendor workbooks tend to be harder than the
real labs in many ways. Our job is not to teach people the lab exam, but to
teach people the technologies and challenge them in new and exciting (and
warped) ways.
Yes, the troubleshooting is different now than it was back then. But I can
honestly say that if I ever found someon going to my routers and changing
the console speeds, or barely pulling the cables out so they looked plugged
in even though they weren't, or flipping DB60 cables upside down to break
things I would put a serious smackdown on them.
While it was interesting, it wasn't realistic. Were we challenged?
Sure. But in different ways.
We also had to deal with IPX, Appletalk, DecNet, X.25, and a bunch of other
things that are relegated into the history books of networking now. Some
CCIEs had to deal with the AGS and assembling circuit boards/PROMs/jumpers
for their lab. Each "version" of the lab is useful for its time. But one
era isn't necessarily better or worse off than the others. On the other
hand, I remember my main goal was to pass the lab before ATM LANE was
introduced. Mostly 'cause I was going to be damned to have to learn
anything new by that point!
Those who have numbers below 8000 simply have a few years more experience
than the numbers around 18000. Hopefully some good experience in there!
Whether its about money or not shouldn't make anything less valuable in
obtaining the certification. It's all just a different perspective.
Remember that the proctors more than likely have seen all the vendor's
materials... If nothing else, perhaps we are making it harder for everyone
these days. Ever thought about that? (smirk)
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE
#153, CISSP, et al.
CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-J
VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
smorris@ipexpert.com
Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
Fax: +1.810.454.0130
http://www.ipexpert.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Joseph Brunner
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:27 PM
To: 'Seonghui'; 'darth router'; 'shiran guez'
Cc: subodh.rawat@wipro.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: All numbers are beutiful ...but below 7000 have something
special
Sad when a company with a $192.47 Billion Dollar market cap is stressing
about $20 Million Dollars...
During the .dot com bust I remember when CMGI would spend that on a holiday
party, LOL!
I think the CCIE lab should be free to anyone who passes the written.
Sure
ok make the written harder, with simulator questions, proving configuration
skills...
But don't treat people who will eventually will promote and help Cisco like
drunk Celebrities looking to do "bottle service".
(Bottle service is when a night club charges 20 to 100 times the price of a
bottle of liquor for the "right" to sit at table, and look cool).
I can't wait until Google obsoletes Cisco where "everyone has a sales
quota". I'll gladly trade to become a GCSE (Google certified search expert).
LOL!
-Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Seonghui
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:56 PM
To: darth router; shiran guez
Cc: subodh.rawat@wipro.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: All numbers are beutiful ...but below 7000 have something
special
I prefer the 2-day lab as well (even though I sat and passed the 1 day
lab)
If you were in Cisco's shoe, instead of taking 1day to test 1 CCIE
candidate, now you need 2 days, their 'revenue' from the lab exam will be
reduced by half...
Don't forget it's USD1350 per exam X number of seats X number of center
worldwide X number of days in a year open for testing
If my calculation is correct, it's at least a USD20mil business (1 day
lab)...
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
darth router
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:23 AM
To: shiran guez
Cc: subodh.rawat@wipro.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: All numbers are beutiful ...but below 7000 have something
special
I would rather have a two day CCIE number. The two day lab is definitely
harder. It is 2 days! Despite your know how and ability to pass day one you
could get tripped up by something stupid, like a gum wrapper wrapped around
a a cable contact. Cisco ditched the two day format because they felt if you
could build the lab, you should be able to troubleshoot it as well. On top
of that, do any of you think you could pass the lab reading merely cisco
press books? There were not many vendor workbooks back in those days; thus
much much harder to learn the relavant info, thus less people passing the
lab, and thus a much more difficult overall endeavor. I would love for cisco
to bring back the two day lab. That would solve the problem of cheaters and
braindumpers. There is no way a braindumper would be able to troubleshoot
that rack on day 2 :) Bring it back Cisco!!
DR
On 9/12/07, shiran guez <shiranp3@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> According to your theory that it is easier because there are more
> information, either people are stupid or lazy.
>
> and I think you should try before stating such theory, and after you
try
> tell us your experience.
>
>
>
> On 9/12/07, subodh.rawat@wipro.com <subodh.rawat@wipro.com> wrote:
> >
> > Though I am preparing for CCIE and think that achiving CCIE is
something
> > a great achievment. But I think that numbers below 7000 or 8000 for
that
> > matter are more than beautiful. They are hard earned numbers.
Getting
> > number these days is fairly easy than before, may be bacause
vendor's
> > workbooks are very close to real lab.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> >
> > Subodh
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Oct 06 2007 - 12:01:11 ART