From: Darby Weaver (darbyweaver@yahoo.com)
Date: Sun Aug 19 2007 - 06:20:01 ART
Hmmm...
Seems to me that the only one who wins through silence
of such matters is the H.R. Department...
And maybe employment agencies.
If everyone knew what the salary rates really were
then it might not really be a bad thing for the
employed.
If there's one thing I've seen over the years that
holds true it seems to me that you tend to earn what
you ask for.
Example if you make $20,000.00 per year then it would
be impossible for you to make $100,000.00 per year.
In fact, I recall seeing something to the effect
(maybe verbatim), that an H.R. manager would NOT grant
someone say a $10,000.00 bump since that would
constitute an "undeserved" raise...
vs.
Say a $5,000.00 bump that to the H.R. manager would
seem more reasonable.
Never mind the fact that the job may pay 10-30k more
than the person was making to begin with.
It also seems to me that this mentality is the norm in
the industry, especially our industry.
A given H.R. department would prefer to perform a
"salary review" and base an employee's salary on the
prevailing wage or average (or not in some cases)...
rather than legitimately figure out what a specific
job role is actually worth to a gicen company in terms
of revenue.
Example, I once saw a certain person's resume here
applying for a job somewhere and I'd swear I'd think a
certain Cisco employee would have been worth far more
money than what I saw that person applying for...
However, it is what it is, even it happened to be in
California.
There seems to be a prevailing myth that employees in
California or New York earn a ton more money than
employees doing similar or in our case the same job in
places like the lazy south - example I live in
Orlando.
This may be what people want to believe. Not quite as
true as some may like to believe.
While I have met CCNP's from the Silicon Valley and
other places earning $110k and so...
Most other times...
I have seen the same 90k CCNP in California having to
buy that $500-700k house with what amounts to $200k
equity and an interest only loan.
In Orlando, the 90-110k CCNP can still afford to buy a
$400-500k house on a 30-year loan.
Hmmm...
Working for companies that employee people in all
three areas and more, even internationally and having
a chance to compare and contrast such things...
The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Now the funny thing is I can still go back to the deep
south "Mobile, New Orleans, and other places" and earn
a decent income and buy a $100-200k house and live ok.
And for 300k+, I'm buying in some areas what equates
to a mansion with acreage.
Nope silence and ignorance only benefits an employer
at least in my experience.
Example - if you are asked what you are earning - Why
would you answer this?
Would you retort the same question to the H.R. person?
Would they answer you? Probably not.
If you are too high, then you are excluded.
If you are too low, you are either excluded or worse
you are hired at a lower rate than you could be
earning.
Hmmm..
The one who speaks first loses.
How about asking for the salary range - places that
are not trying to "beat you" will openly tell you the
range of the position. Those who have something to
gain or are trying to "beat you" typically will not,
while there may be exceptions, they will be few.
Do recruiters get a bonus for bringing in talent for
$10k less...?
Hmmm...
Recently I spoke to a recruiter and was told that we
networking and systems types were a commodity, common,
and typically "a dime a dozen" basically referring to
the fact that we were easy to find and recruit.
Hmmm... ERP tpyes are harder to find, more difficult
to fill, and more expensive to hire - $100k+ to start
even with the lowliest of skills.
The funny thing is that on this list, one of the more
technical lists on the net...
Many probably still earn from $40-75k, if I had to
guess and even a modest 90-110k might seem very nice
to a good many on this list, even a number of CCIE's.
Still wanna keep secrets?
There are the exceptions - the CCNP's in the post 110k
bracket by luck or skill.
The CCIE's in the post $150k bracket.
The pre-sales types making more money than some
presidents.
I guess we can still be dumb and dumber...
--- "Brant I. Stevens" <branto@branto.com> wrote:
> Am I the only one who thinks it is in rather poor
> taste to be talking about
> one's income in such an open forum? Speaking of
> one's salary with others
> within an organization, especially financials, can
> lead to dismissal should
> management and/or HR be aware. With all the stories
> of people losing jobs
> because of their Myspace activity, it just doesn't
> strike me as a very wise
> thing to do.
>
> Never mind that Google will archive these messages
> in perpetuity... Any
> potential FUTURE employer can, and usually will,
> Google candidates.
>
> -Brant
>
>
> On 8/18/07 1:24 AM, "Scott Vermillion"
> <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
>
> > Ah, now it all makes sense! I think both Joe and
> I were looking at that
> > "consultancy" bit and thinking ????? When I see
> that, I'm thinking raw
> > rate paid for services rendered, and in that case,
> you have to look at
> > all of the business overhead expenses that Joe
> initially mentioned. No
> > way to think of doing that in a major metro area
> (esp expensive LA) for
> > $45US/hr!
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> area
> > From: "Narbik Kocharians" <narbikk@gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, August 17, 2007 7:14 pm
> > To: "Darby Weaver" <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "Scott Vermillion"
> <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com>, "Craig Tompkins"
> > <sidalo@gmail.com>, "Joseph Brunner"
> <joe@affirmedsystems.com>,
> > "Andrew Shin" <mr.dude@gmail.com>,
> ccielab@groupstudy.com, "Larry
> > Letterman (lletterm)" <lletterm@cisco.com>
> >
> > Joseph,
> >
> > Thanks for your kind worlds, but the range that
> i mentioned was not
> > for me, this range is typical when you go
> through an agency, if you
> > want to do it on your own, then the hourly rate
> changes drastically.
> >
> > I have been in this industry for the past 30
> years and i have not
> > worked for a firm for the last 12 + years, not
> that its bad, but i
> > just have not.
> >
> > If you have your own consulting firm and you are
> not going through an
> > agency, you could charge a lot more depending on
> the contract.
> >
> > But if some one just got their CCIE and they are
> consulting for an
> > agency, and they have about 4 - 5 years of
> exper. they would probably
> > make around 100K.
> >
> > Remember that the houses in LA are expensive,
> but not everyone lives
> > in an expensive house, you guys are blessed to
> pay 400 b 500K for a
> > house and get a 4 b 5 bedrooms, here in LA,
> with that money
> > (Depending where you live) it should be a good
> down payment for a 3
> > bed + 2 bath house or may be for a 2 bedroom
> condo.
> >
> > But remember that its great to leave LA, but it
> will very hard to
> > come back.
> >
> > On 8/17/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Wow!!!
> >
> > Joseph, those are pretty strong words. Did it
> sound
> > like the person was addressing you personally?
> >
> > I can think of plenty CCNP's who might like to
> take a
> > position like that - it won't get one rich but
> man...
> >
> > That was a pretty decent sized flame.
> >
> > --- Narbik Kocharians < narbikk@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> What do CCIEs with few years of exper. make?
> >>
> >> On 8/17/07, Scott Vermillion
> >> <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> No wonder so many California big city types have
> >> been showing up here in
> >>> CO!! With a CCNP/CCDP it's possible to earn a
> W2
> >> hourly wage within the
> >>> range you're talking about below (definitely
> >> towards the lower end of that
> >>> range, but within that range nonetheless)...
> >>>
> >>> -------- Original Message --------
> >>> Subject: Re: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> area
> >>> From: "Narbik Kocharians" <narbikk@gmail.com>
> >>> Date: Fri, August 17, 2007 3:51 pm
> >>> To: "Larry Letterman (lletterm)"
> >> <lletterm@cisco.com>
> >>> Cc: "Craig Tompkins" <sidalo@gmail.com>,
> "Joseph
> >> Brunner"
> >>> < joe@affirmedsystems.com>, "Andrew Shin"
> >> <mr.dude@gmail.com>,
> >>> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> >>>
> >>> I live in LA and the hourly rate for a CCIE for
> a
> >> long term contract is
> >>> anywhere from 45 - 100 per hour. 100 per hour
> >> requires lots of experiance.
> >>>
> >>> On 8/17/07, Larry Letterman (lletterm)
> >>
> > <lletterm**@cisco.com<
> >
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Go check house prices in LA then..
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From:
> >>
> > nobody**@groupstudy.com<
> >
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>[mailto:
> >>>
> >> ;
> > nobody**@groupstudy.com<
> >
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>]
> >>> On Behalf Of
> >>>> Narbik Kocharians
> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 3:20 PM
> >>>> To: Craig Tompkins
> >>>> Cc: Joseph Brunner; Andrew Shin;
> >>
> > ccielab**@groupstudy.com<
> >
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> >> area
> >>>>
> >>>> This is NOT a bad pay for a NP or even a CCIE
> >> that just starting with
> >>>> very little exp.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/17/07, Craig Tompkins
> >>
> > <sidalo**@gmail.com<
> >
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is this hostility leftover from your 8th
> >> attempt?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The base pay yes is 50 x 2080 = 104,000 yearly
> >> assuming no overtime.
> >>>>> Yes you are right that after providing their
> >> own insurance, that the
> >>>>> position paying that amount on a contracting
> >> basis in the LA area is a
> >>>>
> >>>>> little low. You could have pointed this out,
> >> hile being a little more
> >>>>
> >>>>> respectful and professional.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Craig Tompkins
> >>>>> CCIE #16921
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/17/07, Joseph Brunner
> >>
> >
> >
>
<joe**@affirmedsystems.com<http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart
> > =0&type=replyall&folder=INBOX&uid=22#Compose
> >>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sorry, but $50 an hour is hardly $100k per
> >> year... and from that you
> >>>>> want
> >>>>>> me
> >>>>>> to buy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -business liability insurance
> >>>>>> -business errors & omissions insurance
> >> (usually required to get the
> >>>>> first)
> >>>>>> -the employers 7.2% share of social security
> >> (on the first $97,000)
> >>>>>> -my own health insurance -contribute to my
> >> own 401k.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't say this lightly, but go $#ck
> >> yourself. Do you think anyone
> >>>>>> any good is going to do that job for about
> >> $60k a year?
> >>>>>> < BR>> > > > > -Joe
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From:
> >>
> >
> >
>
nobody**@groupstudy.com<http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&
> > type=replyall&folder=INBOX&uid=22#Compose
> >> [mailto:
> >>>
> >>
> > nobody**@groupstudy.com<
> >
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>]
> >>> On Behalf
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Of Andrew Shin
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 2:36 PM
> >>>>>> To:
> >>
> > ccielab**@groupstudy.com<
> >
> >
>
http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INB
> > OX&uid=22#Compose>
> >>>>>> Subject: Contract Position in Los Angeles
> >> area
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all, I'm forwarding this for a friend.
> >> I'll also post this on
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>> job
> >>>>>> board, but I'm not sure how many people
> >> ch eck that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1+ year local contract (hourly consultancy
> >> 50/hr range) in the Los
> >>>>> Angeles
> >>>>>> area (South Bay)
> >>>>>> It's with a well established and well known
> >> global company and has
> >>>>>> the likelihood of extending for a long time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Network Engineer
> >>>>>> Mid to Senior level NW Engineer who has
> >> large corporate NW
> >>>>>> engineering experience.
> >>>>>> WAN/LAN, VOIP.
> >>>>>> 7-10 years of NW Engineering experience
> >> Experience working within an
> >>>>
> >>>>>> environment that is comprised of Unix,
> >> Windows, and Mainframe (need
> >>>>>> to have worked with all three environments)
> >> Experience providing
> >>>>>> proof of concept and presenting design and
> >> recommendations to team
> >>>>>> members and management.
> >>>>>> Provide 3rd level support.
> >>>>>> Experience with Cisco 2600-7200 routers and
> >> Cisco 350 switches. E
> >>>>>> Experience with Firewall, PIX, VPN 3000
> >> Concentrator, ATM, and video
> >>>>
> >>>>>> conferencing.
> >>>>>> Professional with good communication
> >> abilities
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please contact
> >>
> >
> matthew.chontos**@ispace.com<http://email.secur
> >
> >
>
eserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&type=replyall&folder=INBOX&uid=22#Compose
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >
>
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