From: David Mann (dmann73702@elmore.rr.com)
Date: Sat Apr 28 2007 - 00:00:27 ART
This is too good.
Gregory,
I feel your pain. Working at a bank is slamming and banging. Everything is
mission critical and nothing can have down time. I just started back at a
bank that I use to
work at previously. First day back, nothing but meetings.
Just let a high end 3rd party vendor go down, even if its unmanaged circuits
and routers coming into your network. When millions of dollars a day
traverse these connections
the right(or wrong) preople can make work difficult.
In comparison, I have worked at an army installation, cisco partner,
several manufactoring co. and none compare to the type pressure that this
type environment can put on you.
Did I say it good to be back at the bank;-)
Dm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darby Weaver" <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
To: "Gregory Gombas" <ggombas@gmail.com>
Cc: "Larry Letterman (lletterm)" <lletterm@cisco.com>; "CCIE 19999"
<ccie@iprimus.com.au>; "Scott Thornton" <scthornton@gmail.com>; "Leigh
Harrison" <ccileigh@gmail.com>; "Tony Schaffran"
<groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com>; <jslauer@hotmail.com>; "Michael Zuo"
<mzuo@ixiacom.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: OT: CCIE salary surveys
> Yes - it was while I was in the military.
>
> But I do know people can artificially induce stress, I
> got past most of that at an early age.
>
> If I'm doing my job to the best of my ability, then I
> ususally am not personally stressed - now this does
> not mean that I do not perform "due diligence", ample
> research, or take every measure to ensure the success
> of the endeavor - whatever it is.
>
> I do take the job seriously. It does pay my bills.
>
> Baseball bats... Ouch! I knew one of my buddies that
> had to deal with that. He didn't back down. But he
> did have to eat with a straw since his jaw was wired.
>
> Even Congress has had physical confrontations on the
> floor with weapons, a cane as I recall.
>
> ============
>
> Back to salary. I agree most people tend to expect a
> CCIE to bring a wealth of previous experience to the
> table, preferably working in complex and demanding
> environments that required demonstrated skill and
> deeper understanding.
>
> Six digit salaries don't come for free most of the
> time.
>
>
> --- Gregory Gombas <ggombas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Didn't loose my cool too badly when my leg was
>> broken in a fight once once,
>> in fact I didn't even show my attackers the
>> slightest once of care
>> when they wedged my leg on the concrete and broke it
>> a second time"
>>
>> Sounds like you have worked for a financial firm
>> before!
>> I've heard of a broker hitting an IT guy with a bat
>> when his PC went
>> down but nothing that bad. Seriously thats some
>> crazy sh*t you've been
>> through...
>>
>> But back to the subject of salary's - some people
>> think they can just
>> pass the CCIE and sit back and wait for the checks
>> to roll in.
>> The reality is to make 6 figures in the NYC region
>> you most likely
>> would have to work for a financial in which case
>> evening and weekend
>> work is a must.
>> A lot of people that come from other environments
>> have a hard time
>> coping with the daily pressures.
>>
>>
>> On 4/26/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Gregory,
>> >
>> > No offense but people yelling at me would not
>> stress
>> > me out.
>> >
>> > Stress for me was something like watching a person
>> (a
>> > friend no less) getting a heart massage and dying
>> then
>> > and there on the spot while I had a front row
>> seat.
>> >
>> > Stress is responding to a situation and finding a
>> man
>> > caught in between the jaws of a steel string door
>> by
>> > the head and watching the nerves of the body
>> writhe in
>> > pain. Removing the man was no easy feat either.
>> His
>> > head resembled a flattend pancake. He took three
>> days
>> > to die as I recall.
>> >
>> > Stress is responding to an emergency and dutifully
>> > going into a stairwell while hearing explosions
>> and
>> > noticing on the wall in front of you - "DANGER -
>> > Munitions - Salt-Water Activated". While you have
>> a
>> > hose and the man behind you is has a sprinkler to
>> > shower you with.
>> >
>> > So tell me Gregory, having a bunch of people yell
>> at
>> > you really bother you that badly...
>> >
>> > Wouldn't bother me...
>> >
>> > Not today, not tomorrow, and not any time next
>> week...
>> >
>> > And if the net should go down... Let them watch.
>> >
>> > The last time I was in a similar situation, and
>> every
>> > VP and Board Member was running around looking
>> useless
>> > and concerned and tempers were flairing over some
>> > 30,000 people standing in the July heat of Florida
>> > during a network outage on the 4th of July...
>> >
>> > Tempers were flaring...
>> >
>> > My response was simple. It did not concern me one
>> > bit. The fact is no amount of "additional stress"
>> was
>> > gonna get the problem done any sooner.
>> >
>> > So I told my Director quite frankly "I do not care
>> if
>> > God were here, this problem would not get resolved
>> any
>> > faster" after he tried to explain the situation in
>> > terms of people waiting, revenue potentially lost,
>> and
>> > execs running around on his coat tails.
>> >
>> > And you know I meant it.
>> >
>> > There was that time when I suffered a steam burn
>> from
>> > below my pecs to just below my lips and everything
>> in
>> > between was melted and looked like wax. Painful
>> > indeed, but was I stressed, no not really.
>> >
>> > Neither the time that I had to watch as my wrist
>> was
>> > slowly slit. Didn't stress me a bit. Didn't hurt
>> as
>> > bad either for that matter. I bled heavily, but I
>> did
>> > survive.
>> >
>> > Another one Gregory, I did not get stressed the
>> time I
>> > got stabbed with a coke bottle. Didn't loose my
>> cool
>> > too badly when my leg was broken in a fight once
>> once,
>> > in fact I didn't even show my attackers the
>> slightest
>> > once of care when they wedged my leg on the
>> concrete
>> > and broke it a second time, and you know what when
>> I
>> > got to the hopsital and they pricked my leg below
>> the
>> > knee after using local anethesia, and took a hand
>> > drill and started drilling, I do not recall being
>> too
>> > visibly stressed either. In fact one of the males
>> > nurses, was watching me closely ans asked if I
>> wanted
>> > something to chew on and I declined. The next
>> thing
>> > he asked me was "How can you watch?" and I told
>> him "I
>> > do this kinda thing all the time."
>> >
>> > And Gregory, I've never flinched even when at
>> gunpoint
>> > in point blank range. Never.
>> >
>> > So tell me exactly, how bad is the stress they
>> make
>> > you feel...
>> >
>> > They could not stress me that badly, I was trained
>> > very well for the worse of it. Not in this life
>> or
>> > the next.
>> >
>> > Tell me another about stress.
>> >
>> >
>> > --- Gregory Gombas <ggombas@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hey Darby and gang,
>> > >
>> > > No offense, but I don't think you know what
>> stress
>> > > is...
>> > >
>> > > Have you ever worked for a financial company?
>> > >
>> > > I love it when a herd of managers comes rumbling
>> > > down the hall
>> > > whenever a site goes down and then they would
>> stand
>> > > behind you (not
>> > > helping one bit) screaming until you get it back
>> up.
>> > > Then they look
>> > > for someone's head because they lost millions of
>> > > dollars for the site
>> > > being down for 6 minutes.
>> > >
>> > > And oh yeah you can't even blink at a network
>> device
>> > > until the weekend
>> > > (often wee into the midnight hours).
>> > >
>> > > Unfortunately if you want to make decent money
>> in
>> > > this town financial
>> > > is the only option.
>> > >
>> > > Maybe I should move down south...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 4/25/07, Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > I'm working my weekends, evenings, wee hours
>> > > beyond
>> > > > midnight sometimes, and did I forget to
>> mention
>> > > > holidays...
>> > > >
>> > > > And I travel a bit as required.
>> > > >
>> > > > What would I be losing exactly?
>> > > >
>> > > > Got the CC*P and a little experience - not as
>> much
>> > > as
>> > > > some here...
>> > > >
>> > > > The biggest network I worked on only had like
>> > > twenty
>> > > > something Cat6009-6513's... and a couple
>> thousand
>> > > > Cisco devices.
>> > > >
>> > > > Most networks I serve now probably have ~100
>> or so
>> > > > switches, routers, and other devices
>> combined...
>> > > >
>> > > > Hmmm....
>> > > >
>> > > > So...
>> > > >
>> > > > The good thing is I bought my house before the
>> > > prices
>> > > > in Orlando skyrocketed. So it is worth about
>> 2.5
>> > > times
>> > > > what I paid for it and my salary is relatively
>> > > good
>> > > > for the economy in which I live.
>> > > >
>> > > > I do own nicer vehicles (I'm not driving a
>> lambo
>> > > or
>> > > > ferrarri).
>> > > >
>> > > > My benefits, if I actually ever start using
>> all
>> > > them,
>> > > > are great too... actually competitive.
>> > > >
>> > > > Work will always be... well work.
>> > > >
>> > > > However, I live by the saying "If you love
>> what
>> > > you do
>> > > > you'll never work a day in your life..."
>> > > >
>> > > > So for me my hobby is also my job.
>> > > >
>> > > > AS far as stress level, I work hard to enusure
>> I
>> > > am
>> > > > not stressed that much. I do get tired due to
>> a
>> > > lack
>> > > > of sleep at times but that's it.
>> > > >
>> > > > But I will concede salary surveys never seem
>> to
>> > > take
>> > > > that into consideration at all.
>> > > >
>> > > > How many CCIE's truly get the luxury of a 9-5
>> job
>> > > > anyway? And have a job that is not a little
>> > > stressful?
>> > > >
>> > > > Even our beloved and notable vendors are up
>> > > burning
>> > > > midnight oil mostly every single night. I
>> know
>> > > since
>> > > > we either chat a bit or toss emails.
>> > > >
>> > > > But hey, do not think I'm mad or upset about
>> this
>> > > type
>> > > > of work - I rather enjoy it. It is what I
>> chose
>> > > to do
>> > > > and I like to think I had a few pretty decent
>> > > choices
>> > > > to choose from.
>> > > >
>> > > > So...
>> > > >
>> > > > Ooops - off the soap box - gotta go home and
>> dive
>> > > into
>> > > > my racks - well actually I'll probably just
>> dive
>> > > in
>> > > > from the office.
>> > > >
>> > > > Did I mention I only work 3.1 miles from home
>> > > these
>> > > > days and I have virtually no traffic... and
>> since
>> > > I
>> > > > can see the I-4 Parking Lot from my leisurely
>> > > drive -
>> > > > I actually get a daily reminder of what my
>> drive
>> > > was
>> > > > like for the past 5 years or so before...
>> > > >
>> > > > So... till something better comes along...
>> > > >
>> > > > Later guys
>> > > >
>> > > > Again sorry to bother with another chapter...
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --- "Larry Letterman (lletterm)"
>> > > <lletterm@cisco.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I'll stay in Texas and have my weekends...:)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: Gregory Gombas
>> [mailto:ggombas@gmail.com]
>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 3:05 PM
>> > > > > To: Larry Letterman (lletterm)
>> > > > > Cc: CCIE 19999; Scott Thornton; Leigh
>> Harrison;
>> > > Tony
>> > > > > Schaffran;
>> > > > > jslauer@hotmail.com; Darby Weaver; Michael
>> Zuo;
>> > > > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > > > > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE salary surveys
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You guys are missing two critical elements
>> from
>> > > your
>> > > > > calculations:
>> > > > > 1. Stress level
>> > > > > 2. Weekends/Evening work
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Here in the NYC area even with a CCIE if you
>> > > plan on
>> > > > > making 120k you can
>> > > > > kiss your weekends goodbye.
>> > > > > And don't expect to work 9-5 either....
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 4/25/07, Larry Letterman (lletterm)
>> > > > > <lletterm@cisco.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > An ale or a beer...they have it in the USA
>> > > > > also..without the high cost
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > of London..
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
>> > > > > [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>> > > > > > Of CCIE 19999
>> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:54 PM
>> > > > > > To: 'Scott Thornton'; 'Leigh Harrison'
>> > > > > > Cc: 'Tony Schaffran'; jslauer@hotmail.com;
>> > > 'Darby
>> > > > > Weaver'; 'Michael
>> > > > > > Zuo'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > > > > > Subject: RE: OT: CCIE salary surveys
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boddingtons
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
>> > > > > [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>> > > > > > Of Scott Thornton
>> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2007 12:38 PM
>> > > > > > To: Leigh Harrison
>> > > > > > Cc: Tony Schaffran; jslauer@hotmail.com;
>> Darby
>> > > > > Weaver; Michael Zuo;
>> > > > > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE salary surveys
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Boddington? Not familiar with that one...
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On 4/24/07, Leigh Harrison
>> > > <ccileigh@gmail.com>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > You guys are getting done!!
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Come and work in London $150k+ all the
>> bits
>> > > and
>> > > > > bobs:-
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?JobId=29392149&Keywo
>> > > > > > rd
>> > > > > > s=cc
>> > > > > > ie
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > AND!! There's all the fish and chips you
>> can
>> > > eat
>> > > > > and all the
>> > > > > > > Boddingtons you can drink!!
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > LH
>> > > > > > > #15331
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Tony Schaffran wrote:
>> > > > > > > > Yes. Not a very high demand for
>> CCIE's in
>> > > the
>> > > > > North Dakota area.
>> > > > > > > > You
>> > > > > > > would
>> > > > > > > > be lucky to fetch $60K
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Tony Schaffran
>> > > > > > > > Network Analyst
>> > > > > > > > CCIE #11071
>> > > > > > > > CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
>> > > > > > > > NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > www.cconlinelabs.com
>> > > > > > > > Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack
>> > > rentals.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
>> > > > > [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
>> > > > > > > > Behalf
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Of jslauer@hotmail.com
>> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 3:13 AM
>> > > > > > > > To: Darby Weaver; Michael Zuo;
>> > > > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE salary surveys
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > your hypothesis is correct in the D.C.
>> > > area,
>> > > > > but that's if you
>> > > > > > > > have a high-level security clearance
>> and
>> > > are
>> > > > > willing to work for a
>> > > > > > contractor.
>> > > > > > > If
>> > > > > > > > you want something stable, then you
>> wont
>> > > make
>> > > > > as much.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Remember, the places where the
>> salaries
>> > > are
>> > > > > high like this have a
>> > > > > > > > very
>> > > > > > > high
>> > > > > > > > cost of living.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Josh
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > > From: "Darby Weaver"
>> > > <darbyweaver@yahoo.com>
>> > > > > > > > To: "Michael Zuo" <mzuo@ixiacom.com>;
>> > > > > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:13 AM
>> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: OT: CCIE salary surveys
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> Salary's vary.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I've had friends in the Cali area
>> making
>> > > in
>> > > > > the 60k+ for the CCNA
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> to CCNP level.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I've had class-mates claiming up to
>> 110k
>> > > > > incomes at the CCNP
>> > > > > > > >> level
>> > > > > > > >> - of course they were earning their
>> CCIE
>> > > and
>> > > > > were fast-tracking.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> So 120-130k is not unnatural, but I
>> would
>> > > > > venture that seasoned
>> > > > > > > >> CCIE's are doing better in
>> California.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> However, I had several counterparts
>> at
>> > > NBC
>> > > > > and GE and I do not
>> > > > > > > >> recall them saying (or the job
>> postings)
>> > > > > looking like they paid a
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> lot more than my Southeastern wages
>> for
>> > > the
>> > > > > same or similar job
>> > > > > > > >> description.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Same for my counterparts at 30 Rock
>> in
>> > > New
>> > > > > York - it seems that
>> > > > > > > >> around 90k or so was the base
>> starting
>> > > point,
>> > > > > followed with nice
>> > > > > > > >> raises and bonuses.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Now maybe for the highest level
>> positions
>> > > but
>> > > > > who is counting.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I'm in Orlando and if one does not
>> mind
>> > > the
>> > > > > travel the ranges I
>> > > > > > > >> am routinely offered are in the
>> 80-120k
>> > > range
>> > > > > > > >> +/- some form of bonus paackage for
>> the
>> > > CCNP
>> > > > > level
>> > > > > > > >> with experience. For the record, I
>> have
>> > > been
>> > > > > asked to consider
>> > > > > > > >> greater than 120k - so this is not
>> out of
>> > > the
>> > > > > question either
>> > > > > > > >> even for a CCNP - I'm sure the
>> position
>> > > would
>> > > > > have easily
>> > > > > > > >> preferred a CCIE.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> The travel and near-CCIE level
>> positions
>> > > are
>> > > > > in the 110-120k +
>> > > > > > > >> bonus range here in my neck of the
>> woods,
>> > > but
>> > > > > for all I know the
>> > > > > > > >> rates can get better for full CCIE's.
>> - I
>> > > > > would expect it, some
>> > > > > > > >> of my current peers speak of 135k+
>> rates,
>> > > but
>> > > > > I have not seen
>> > > > > > > >> this yet
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> myself - but I am not yet a CCIE
>> either.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I've heard people in the Washington
>> and
>> > > New
>> > > > > York areas are well
>> > > > > > > >> paid for their services.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I've heard that 200k+ in the
>> Washington
>> > > > > D.C./Virgina area are not
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> uncommon.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I guess it comes down to one's
>> ability to
>> > > > > bargain and how one
>> > > > > > > >> present's oneself.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> And recall, some positions simply
>> only
>> > > pay
>> > > > > whatever it is the
>> > > > > > > >> company pays for the job role.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I've also heard that pre-sales
>> engineers
>> > > can
>> > > > > do quite well
>> > > > > > > >> especially in education and
>> government
>> > > > > accounts.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Expect that salary survey are very
>> > > general in
>> > > > > nature.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> I recall when they used to say I was
>> > > > > underpaid and now it seems
>> > > > > > > >> according to them I am overpaid.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> It's strange and it is a statistic.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Best thing to do, is to figure out
>> what
>> > > it
>> > > > > costs you to live,
>> > > > > > > >> throw
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> in whatever else you need like
>> benefits,
>> > > > > vacation, retirement,
>> > > > > > > >> training, etc. and go for that number
>> +/-
>> > > > > however much you will
>> > > > > > > >> need to be where you need to be
>> > > financially.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Good luck!
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Sorry for the long and boring email.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> --- Michael Zuo <mzuo@ixiacom.com>
>> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >>> Hi Group,
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>> I have did a little research online:
>> it
>> > > > > looks like the average
>> > > > > > > >>> salary for CCIE's in California with
>> a
>> > > few
>> > > > > years of experience
>> > > > > > > >>> is around 120 to 130K range
>> according to
>> > > > > various surveys such as
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > >>> Cert
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >>> Mag. Does anyone know how accurate
>> are
>> > > the
>> > > > > survey numbers from
>> > > > > > > >>> personal experience?
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>> I apologize for being off topic,
>> this
>> > > group
>> > > > > seems to be the best
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > >>> place to ask this question :-)
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>> Michael Zuo
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>> CCIE #17800
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > > >> __
>> > > > > > > >> ____
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >>> Subscription information may be
>> found
>> > > at:
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > > >> __ ____ Subscription information may
>> be
>> > > found
>> > > > > at:
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> __________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > > > __ ___ Subscription information may be
>> > > found
>> > > > > at:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> __________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > > > __ ___ Subscription information may be
>> > > found
>> > > > > at:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> ____________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > > __ _ Subscription information may be
>> found
>> > > at:
>> > > > > > >
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --
>> > > > > > Scott C Thornton
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Notice: This e-mail (including
>> attachments) is
>> > > > > covered by the
>> > > > > > Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18
>> > > U.S.C.
>> > > > > 2510-2521, is
>> > > > > > confidential and may be legally
>> privileged.
>> > > If
>> > > > > you are not the
>> > > > > > intended recipient, you are hereby
>> notified
>> > > that
>> > > > > any retention,
>> > > > > > dissemination, distribution, or copying of
>> > > this
>> > > > > communication is
>> > > > > > strictly prohibited. Please reply to the
>> > > sender
>> > > > > that you have
>> > > > > received the message in error, then delete
>> it.
>> > > > > > Thank you.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > _ Subscription information may be found
>> at:
>> > > > > >
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > _ Subscription information may be found
>> at:
>> > > > > >
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>> > > > > > _ Subscription information may be found
>> at:
>> > > > > >
>> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Subscription information may be found at:
> http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue May 01 2007 - 08:28:38 ART