From: Joshua Lauer (jslauer@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Apr 05 2006 - 12:12:10 GMT-3
I got a BS, JD and whole slew of certs to add to the
list...still cant pass this damn test. So, I have
all the respect in the world for it. I think the IE
is a nice touch and complements everything they
really shouldn't be compared to anything else as
there is no comparison. Personally I do this stuff
to learn new knowledge, the degree or certification
is just icing on the cake. If knowledge is the goal,
things will come naturally.
jl
Joshua Lauer
CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCDP, CCSP, CCIP, RHCE, INFOSEC,
CISSP, CEH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Morris" <swm@emanon.com>
To: "'Cisco Engineer'" <hsm_p@hotmail.com>;
<cisco@groupstudy.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: CCIE vs. degree
> And an interesting summation worthy of one who
> apparantly is looking ahead
> towards a dissertation or two. :)
>
> So let's see... IMHO, those who feel a need to
> compare bring us back to
> standing out someplace with a ruler. Just like in
> those instances, any one
> thing (size?) doesn't matter. It's how you use
> it.
>
> I know plenty of folks with Masters' or PhD
> degrees. Some are worthwhile,
> some are not. The same holds true of CCIEs. Some
> are good, some are not.
> C'est la vie.
>
> I think your comparison is a bit off, or at least
> that tells me that when
> you did your CCIE exam you were looking for the
> "quick and easy" approach
> which allows you to make the personal comparison
> to a Calculus course. If
> you stop at finding a particular answer on the
> DocCD and cut'n'paste your
> way to the CCIE, then you are absolutely correct.
> However, if you dive in
> and UNDERSTAND how things work, and understand
> that CCIE isn't the end of
> the track, then you are not correct.
>
> An MBA or PhD is simply an expression of your
> dedication to academia. That,
> in and of itself, doesn't make you any smarter
> (see above). On the other
> hand, it means you enjoy the academis world more
> than the real one? Of
> course, if the simple goal is tenure as you
> pointed out (aka, "Look Ma, I
> can't be fired") then that doesn't exactly set
> lofty goals. While not
> everyone who pursues these would draw this
> response from me, those who set
> out to either make themselves feel better or
> simply depress others along the
> way does.
>
> Unfortunately, I had the ability to work with some
> Harvard MBAs a few years
> back. I'm assuming that would qualify in your
> example of "top" schools.
> And despite a bunch of technical folks telling
> them they were doing things
> wrong (they didn't listen either, what the hell
> did a bunch of CCIEs know?),
> they managed to drive the company into Chapter 7
> bankruptcy. For those who
> don't know, Chapter 11 is the normal "oops, we
> screwed up" bankruptcy.
> Chapter 7 is reserved for special cases who screw
> things up WAY beyond
> repair and won't pay anyone anything. Except, of
> course, for some of those
> same Harvard MBAs who found ways in their
> contracts to get that golden
> parachute on the way out. I suppose that part
> alone makes them smarter than
> some of the rest of us. But on the other hand, it
> sure as hell doesn't
> demonstrate any sort of sanity or expertise along
> the way that an Ivy League
> education SHOULD have given them.
>
> Like everything in life though, it all depends on
> what you want to do. CCIE
> doesn't replace a degree. (e.g. don't leave
> school just for this) But on
> the other hand, there are exceptions, and once
> you're in with an
> organization, it's often possible to excell based
> on your accomplishments
> along the way. Everyone individually should set
> their own goals. If your
> goal is to stay in school for the rest of your
> life, feel free to pursue
> multiple Masters' degrees and a PhD or two. But
> at some point in time,
> wouldn't it be good to PROVE yourself? (No, the
> CCIE exam doesn't do that
> either, but what one typically does after passing
> their CCIE exam does)
> (Note: Getting completely drunk in celebration is
> not counted in this
> example!)
>
> So I'm sure in your vast academic experienes, you
> can appreciate the fact
> that your comparisons really aren't close to each
> other to make them
> scientifically valid. While there isn't a
> differential equation to help, I
> think logic isn't too far behind.
>
> Everyone makes their own choices, and should live
> with whatever they choose.
> Or, if they don't like it, they have the power to
> change it. That doesn't
> downplay the decisions that anyone else makes
> though, so don't post to make
> yourself feel any better for your accomplishments.
> No matter how many
> certifications or degrees you have, it's still
> completely possible to be a
> blithering idiot. *shrug*
>
> As everything, take my opinions as you may.
> Academic or not, there one of
> the few things that really belong to me. :)
> Don't trust me too much
> though, I don't have a technical degree. I'm just
> a journalism major from a
> top school. (oh yeah, and minor studies in
> philosophy and political science
> which likely accounts for some of the snips along
> the way). Career shifts
> are merely a way of saying "oops".
>
> Are MBAs good? Sure! Do you need one? Depends
> on what you want to do.
> Will I get one? Perhaps 10 years from now, when I
> see the writing on the
> wall for "what's next?" or whenever I happen to
> get bored doing what I'm
> doing. All the certifications and degrees are
> simply a means to an end.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service
> Provider) #4713, JNCIE
> #153, CISSP, et al.
> IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
> IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
> swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.com
> http://www.ipexpert.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Cisco Engineer
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:05 AM
> To: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: CCIE vs. degree
>
> From time to time I read people trying to compare
> CCIE with some kind of
> degree; I thought that this may be cool to share
> my own experience. In
> general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned
> throughout the last many years!
>
> But in some points we are different.
>
> Let me share my background first. I got my
> Bachelor of Applied Science
> (Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I
> work as a Network Engineer
> until last August. During the last six years, I
> was working full time as a
> Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx
> series in RS (second try)
> and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of
> Engineering and MBA (from
> top 25 US b-schools) along the way
> (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time work). Then I
> quitted my job last year and return to school full
> time (yes, some CCIE like
> me switched career) to study PhD in operation
> management (from top-25
> b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me
> 2 years in the industry
> to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1
> year where I actively study
> for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and
> 3 or 4 hours during
> weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be
> very smart, because I have
> seen so many smarter people around me!)
> Therefore, with my background, I
> hope that it makes my point a bit more persuasive.
>
> I know that you may find some of the comparison is
> like comparing apple to
> orange. So please bear with me... (You are free
> to delete this email if you
> dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every
> comparison can be apple to
> orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE
> Voice.
>
> 1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree
> (assume it is not from some
> no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my
> own experience, CCIE at most
> can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes,
> just a single second year
> course, not even a bachelor degree). The content
> of CCIE is not difficult
> at all, assume that you can master differential
> equation.
>
> 2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower
> than the passing rate of
> any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There
> are two reasons. First,
> there are lots of low-quality people taking the
> CCIE lab exam, which drag
> down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really
> takes a longer time to study
> for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus.
> It is because first year
> calculus has already prepared me for the second
> year calculus. Also, it is
> difficult to have the time, resource to study.
> And most of all, this is an
> expensive and stressful exam! All things being
> equal (no stress, cheap
> exam), I think that for people who can get an A or
> B in the second year
> calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE lab
> exam within 3 months after
> CCNA level if he can study full time, with all
> equipment, have all the
> material and have a teacher to ask when he/she had
> problem.
>
> 3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only
> god of passing CCIE exam and
> nothing else. For instances, you don't need to
> know Poisson process or any
> queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself
> "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ if all you
> know is just some simple calculation or
> configuration) to pass the CCIE
> written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to
> know NOTHING about queuing,
> other than how to configure it). I never claim
> myself good at networking at
> all. When I need to configure a network, all I
> can say is that, "let's see
> how far I can go". (I don't mean that I am lack
> of self-confidence in front
> of the customer. I just mean that I really know
> that there is so many things
> that I have absolutely no idea about.) Therefore,
> expect some CCIE coming
> to your company to know how to complete all your
> requirement is ridiculous.
>
> I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in
> the bottom of my heart, I
> know that I have many limits.
>
> 4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is
> god of their own field.
> This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not
> god in your own field.
> After you have spent five years in something as
> narrow as, let say, Virtual
> Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only
> the virtual link), then
> you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF.
> Therefore, a PhD knows
> everything about nothing. To continue my analogy,
> if you ask a PhD about a
> stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing
> protocol, or switching, or
> security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast
> to a CCIE, who knows
> little bit about several Cisco things)
>
> 5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the
> same year of experience) is
> higher than the average salary of any degree
> (except MBA). A history full
> professor only makes $40k, and a business
> professor (on the high end) would
> make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make
> more than $100k (even though
> I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
>
> 6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being
> admitted is NOT the most
> difficult part of graduating from a top school.
> It is certainly true that
> being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being
> admited to the bachelor
> degree of top school is very hard, and being
> admited to a top school's PhD
> program is almost impossible. You think that the
> average passing rate of
> CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the
> admission rate of top school is
> 3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the
> best in their own school?)
> But if you think that you will graduate simply
> because you are admitted,
> you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the
> once-per-year admission
> cycle is very hard. However, the project and the
> homework will kill you!
> Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours
> CCIE lab) is walk in park.
>
> 7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let
> me devote my last point for
> those who are currently a professor). Continue
> from #6. If you think that
> graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then
> how about able to find a
> tenure-track job from a top school? And if you
> think that you are hired by
> a top school is tough, how about making the
> tenure? (my point is, difficult
> never ends...)
>
> My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate.
> Having a degree would only
> get you the ticket for admission. So does having
> a CCIE certificate. The
> rest is still up to you. However, it is true that
> having a CCIE or having a
> degree have a strong relationship to being able to
> success in your career.
> therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the
> HR to filter out lots of
> people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill
> Gates. However, do you
> think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may
> think so, but the HR or the
> hiring manager may not share your thought! If
> they don't hire you, then
> start another company, get rich, and buy that
> company (like how AOL
> purchased Times)
>
> This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about
> academic. In the networking
> world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka
> Cisco way) but in academia,
> you have freedom to express your controversial
> thought!)
>
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