From: Roberto Fernandez (rofernandez@us.telefonica.com)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2006 - 18:17:49 GMT-3
People,
Give the guy a break, I know him and probably he just wrote too many
thoughts to fast...but still the posting is valid since he makes good
points. CCIE is a key, MBA is a key; once you enter you are on your own.
Having an MBA doesn't make you a top executive on the spot; you still
need to work your way up. I guess, and I think that now; if you are not
too ambitious (~100K is enough) a CCIE can find more quality time to
spend with his family and will need to exercise his lips less, kissing
stinking parts of the body and have decent and quiet live.
On the other hand if one feels the millionaire fiber inside, of course
the MBA is a good start, but just a start.
Regarding a PhD, it is not even a guarantee for anything (big money
wise) it is more a personal place, where you know you are smart and that
you can learn complex things to the detail.
So my bottom line, there is not magic at either side. The magic is in
the middle, on the man making the choice.
My 2C
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Church, Chuck
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 4:30 PM
To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: CCIE vs. degree
Ok, I promised myself I wasn't going to respond to this thread,
but I guess I lied :) I'm really not sure what the goal of the
original poster is, but I'm guessing it's either money or prestige. Or
maybe both. The fact is, neither will come without job experience. A
person who passes the CCIE lab yet has little to no experience in the
real world of networking won't (or more accurately "shouldn't") make
$100K or more. Same with an MBA, PhD, Masters, etc. If you think a
company is going to hand you a position paying 6 figures without any
experience in that field, you're insane. I have a buddy who works at
MIT doing programming-type work. A masters degree gets you about a $10K
higher base salary over a B.S. ; and a PhD is maybe another $10K over
that. So if 5 extra years of your life is worth $20K, then go for it.
But if you start in a field now, 5 years from now you could be making
$20K more from raises, etc.
So figure out your goals. If you like bossing people around, go
for management - MBA. But whatever you decide on doing, be prepared to
spend a few years building your skill set. Remember, a complete career
change may put you back to square one. If I decided tomorrow I'm going
to be a psychologist, I couldn't' dream of making my current salary for
at least 6 to 7 years.
I do find it puzzling that a CCIE in the 7xxx range would have
been making under $50,000 when salaries were through the roof 5-6 years
ago, and the lack of resources (Groupstudy, practice labs, etc) made it
rely on work experience a great deal more. But I'm sure there's more to
the story, probably due to geography, etc...
Just my .02, no guarantees of correctness :)
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Cisco Engineer
Sent: 03 April 2006 07:05
To: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: CCIE vs. degree
From time to time I read people trying to compare CCIE with some kind of
degree; I thought that this may be cool to share my own experience. In
general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned throughout the last many
years!
But in some points we are different.
Let me share my background first. I got my Bachelor of Applied Science
(Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I work as a Network
Engineer
until last August. During the last six years, I was working full time
as a
Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx series in RS (second
try)
and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of Engineering and MBA
(from
top 25 US b-schools) along the way (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time work).
Then I
quitted my job last year and return to school full time (yes, some CCIE
like
me switched career) to study PhD in operation management (from top-25
b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me 2 years in the
industry
to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1 year where I actively
study
for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and 3 or 4 hours during
weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be very smart, because I
have
seen so many smarter people around me!) Therefore, with my background,
I
hope that it makes my point a bit more persuasive.
I know that you may find some of the comparison is like comparing apple
to
orange. So please bear with me... (You are free to delete this email if
you
dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every comparison can be
apple to
orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE Voice.
1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree (assume it is not from
some
no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my own experience, CCIE at
most
can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes, just a single second year
course, not even a bachelor degree). The content of CCIE is not
difficult
at all, assume that you can master differential equation.
2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower than the passing rate
of
any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There are two reasons. First,
there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab exam, which
drag
down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really takes a longer time to
study
for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus. It is because first
year
calculus has already prepared me for the second year calculus. Also, it
is
difficult to have the time, resource to study. And most of all, this is
an
expensive and stressful exam! All things being equal (no stress, cheap
exam), I think that for people who can get an A or B in the second year
calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE lab exam within 3 months
after
CCNA level if he can study full time, with all equipment, have all the
material and have a teacher to ask when he/she had problem.
3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only god of passing CCIE exam
and
nothing else. For instances, you don't need to know Poisson process or
any
queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ if all
you
know is just some simple calculation or configuration) to pass the CCIE
written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to know NOTHING about
queuing,
other than how to configure it). I never claim myself good at
networking at
all. When I need to configure a network, all I can say is that, "let's
see
how far I can go". (I don't mean that I am lack of self-confidence in
front
of the customer. I just mean that I really know that there is so many
things
that I have absolutely no idea about.) Therefore, expect some CCIE
coming
to your company to know how to complete all your requirement is
ridiculous.
I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in the bottom of my
heart, I
know that I have many limits.
4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is god of their own field.
This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not god in your own field.
After you have spent five years in something as narrow as, let say,
Virtual
Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only the virtual link),
then
you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF. Therefore, a PhD knows
everything about nothing. To continue my analogy, if you ask a PhD
about a
stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing protocol, or switching, or
security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast to a CCIE, who knows
little bit about several Cisco things)
5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the same year of
experience) is
higher than the average salary of any degree (except MBA). A history
full
professor only makes $40k, and a business professor (on the high end)
would
make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make more than $100k (even
though
I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being admitted is NOT the most
difficult part of graduating from a top school. It is certainly true
that
being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being admited to the bachelor
degree of top school is very hard, and being admited to a top school's
PhD
program is almost impossible. You think that the average passing rate
of
CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the admission rate of top school
is
3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the best in their own
school?)
But if you think that you will graduate simply because you are
admitted,
you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the once-per-year
admission
cycle is very hard. However, the project and the homework will kill
you!
Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours CCIE lab) is walk in
park.
7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let me devote my last point
for
those who are currently a professor). Continue from #6. If you think
that
graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then how about able to find a
tenure-track job from a top school? And if you think that you are hired
by
a top school is tough, how about making the tenure? (my point is,
difficult
never ends...)
My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate. Having a degree would
only
get you the ticket for admission. So does having a CCIE certificate.
The
rest is still up to you. However, it is true that having a CCIE or
having a
degree have a strong relationship to being able to success in your
career.
therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the HR to filter out lots
of
people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill Gates. However, do you
think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may think so, but the HR or
the
hiring manager may not share your thought! If they don't hire you, then
start another company, get rich, and buy that company (like how AOL
purchased Times)
This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about academic. In the
networking
world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka Cisco way) but in
academia,
you have freedom to express your controversial thought!)
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