From: Plank, Jason (JPlank@concordefs.com)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2006 - 14:06:54 GMT-3
Is there any chance we can get back on topic :) I can't believe this guy is
actually getting people riled up
-------------------
Jason Plank
Network Analyst
101 Bellevue Parkway
Wilmington, DE 19809
E-mail: JPlank@concordefs.com
Phone: 302-793-5913
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Lasarko
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 12:51 PM
To: hsm_p@hotmail.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE vs. degree
Nice (anonymous) post...
After reading it I am surprised you would refer to yourself as a "Cisco
Engineer" :)
I have a very good friend who has his PhD and an MBA.
He has since been in networking for 9 years.
Yet this individual cannot seem to grasp the concept of a trace route.
Why?
Well, it is certainly not due to a lack of intelligence; But rather a lack
of
interest.
It just does meet his own personal criteria for "achievement".
Please keep in mind that *most* of those who post and/or read this board
WANT
to know this stuff - and a whole lot more.
Many have said it before and I'll say it again - the CCIE is not an end,
it's
a journey, which leads to a new beginning.
That is the most inspiring thing to me about the (CCIE) program, networking
in
general, and the people on this board.
*Most* WANT to know MORE!!!
Personally, I ace'd Calculus (I & II) - but I still make mistakes with all
kinds of numbers (binary, hex, etc...)
(only_human-dodge_this)
I also got the highest grade in my graduating class on my English finals,
but
if you read a few of my emails you would never know it.
That said, I do not consider myself to be very smart either :)
But I know what is of interest to me - and that to me is (at least) half the
battle.
Back to apples vs. oranges:
Some could debate that they do not make you go back every two years to renew
a
PhD, either.
Hmmmmm... Times change, politics, economics, why wouldn't they?
You cannot even get a PMP w/o maintaining the CEC's to keep it current.
What's my point - You paid at lot of $'s (or got lucky and got a
scholarship?)
for something that "if" you "get_stupid" in a year or three it does not
matter.
You are the captain for all the future and if you fudge it up then down goes
the ship.
On the other hand passing a recert exam is no problem if you know your
material (beyond the semester(s) required) and like (love!) what you do -
it's
a piece of cake.
Apples to oranges to grapes to acorns = <whatever>.
I interpret your post not so much as a 'troll', but rather someone who has
been through a lot of education and has been surprised - lucky and/or
unlucky
at times; but none of that mattered because you didn't/don't like what you
do.
Do what makes you happy (and some $'s if possible at the same time).
There you will find the true value in whatever it is you choose to do.
~M
>>> "Cisco Engineer" <hsm_p@hotmail.com> 04/03/06 2:04 AM >>>
From time to time I read people trying to compare CCIE with some kind of
degree; I thought that this may be cool to share my own experience. In
general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned throughout the last many years!
But in some points we are different.
Let me share my background first. I got my Bachelor of Applied Science
(Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I work as a Network Engineer
until last August. During the last six years, I was working full time as a
Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx series in RS (second try)
and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of Engineering and MBA (from
top 25 US b-schools) along the way (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time work). Then I
quitted my job last year and return to school full time (yes, some CCIE like
me switched career) to study PhD in operation management (from top-25
b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me 2 years in the industry
to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1 year where I actively study
for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and 3 or 4 hours during
weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be very smart, because I have
seen so many smarter people around me!) Therefore, with my background, I
hope that it makes my point a bit more persuasive.
I know that you may find some of the comparison is like comparing apple to
orange. So please bear with me... (You are free to delete this email if you
dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every comparison can be apple to
orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE Voice.
1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree (assume it is not from some
no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my own experience, CCIE at most
can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes, just a single second year
course, not even a bachelor degree). The content of CCIE is not difficult
at all, assume that you can master differential equation.
2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower than the passing rate of
any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There are two reasons. First,
there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab exam, which drag
down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really takes a longer time to study
for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus. It is because first year
calculus has already prepared me for the second year calculus. Also, it is
difficult to have the time, resource to study. And most of all, this is an
expensive and stressful exam! All things being equal (no stress, cheap
exam), I think that for people who can get an A or B in the second year
calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE lab exam within 3 months after
CCNA level if he can study full time, with all equipment, have all the
material and have a teacher to ask when he/she had problem.
3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only god of passing CCIE exam and
nothing else. For instances, you don't need to know Poisson process or any
queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ if all you
know is just some simple calculation or configuration) to pass the CCIE
written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to know NOTHING about queuing,
other than how to configure it). I never claim myself good at networking at
all. When I need to configure a network, all I can say is that, "let's see
how far I can go". (I don't mean that I am lack of self-confidence in front
of the customer. I just mean that I really know that there is so many things
that I have absolutely no idea about.) Therefore, expect some CCIE coming
to your company to know how to complete all your requirement is ridiculous.
I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in the bottom of my heart, I
know that I have many limits.
4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is god of their own field.
This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not god in your own field.
After you have spent five years in something as narrow as, let say, Virtual
Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only the virtual link), then
you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF. Therefore, a PhD knows
everything about nothing. To continue my analogy, if you ask a PhD about a
stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing protocol, or switching, or
security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast to a CCIE, who knows
little bit about several Cisco things)
5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the same year of experience) is
higher than the average salary of any degree (except MBA). A history full
professor only makes $40k, and a business professor (on the high end) would
make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make more than $100k (even though
I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being admitted is NOT the most
difficult part of graduating from a top school. It is certainly true that
being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being admited to the bachelor
degree of top school is very hard, and being admited to a top school's PhD
program is almost impossible. You think that the average passing rate of
CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the admission rate of top school is
3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the best in their own school?)
But if you think that you will graduate simply because you are admitted,
you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the once-per-year admission
cycle is very hard. However, the project and the homework will kill you!
Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours CCIE lab) is walk in park.
7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let me devote my last point for
those who are currently a professor). Continue from #6. If you think that
graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then how about able to find a
tenure-track job from a top school? And if you think that you are hired by
a top school is tough, how about making the tenure? (my point is, difficult
never ends...)
My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate. Having a degree would only
get you the ticket for admission. So does having a CCIE certificate. The
rest is still up to you. However, it is true that having a CCIE or having a
degree have a strong relationship to being able to success in your career.
therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the HR to filter out lots of
people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill Gates. However, do you
think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may think so, but the HR or the
hiring manager may not share your thought! If they don't hire you, then
start another company, get rich, and buy that company (like how AOL
purchased Times)
This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about academic. In the networking
world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka Cisco way) but in academia,
you have freedom to express your controversial thought!)
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