From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2006 - 12:37:48 GMT-3
And an interesting summation worthy of one who apparantly is looking ahead
towards a dissertation or two. :)
So let's see... IMHO, those who feel a need to compare bring us back to
standing out someplace with a ruler. Just like in those instances, any one
thing (size?) doesn't matter. It's how you use it.
I know plenty of folks with Masters' or PhD degrees. Some are worthwhile,
some are not. The same holds true of CCIEs. Some are good, some are not.
C'est la vie.
I think your comparison is a bit off, or at least that tells me that when
you did your CCIE exam you were looking for the "quick and easy" approach
which allows you to make the personal comparison to a Calculus course. If
you stop at finding a particular answer on the DocCD and cut'n'paste your
way to the CCIE, then you are absolutely correct. However, if you dive in
and UNDERSTAND how things work, and understand that CCIE isn't the end of
the track, then you are not correct.
An MBA or PhD is simply an expression of your dedication to academia. That,
in and of itself, doesn't make you any smarter (see above). On the other
hand, it means you enjoy the academis world more than the real one? Of
course, if the simple goal is tenure as you pointed out (aka, "Look Ma, I
can't be fired") then that doesn't exactly set lofty goals. While not
everyone who pursues these would draw this response from me, those who set
out to either make themselves feel better or simply depress others along the
way does.
Unfortunately, I had the ability to work with some Harvard MBAs a few years
back. I'm assuming that would qualify in your example of "top" schools.
And despite a bunch of technical folks telling them they were doing things
wrong (they didn't listen either, what the hell did a bunch of CCIEs know?),
they managed to drive the company into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. For those who
don't know, Chapter 11 is the normal "oops, we screwed up" bankruptcy.
Chapter 7 is reserved for special cases who screw things up WAY beyond
repair and won't pay anyone anything. Except, of course, for some of those
same Harvard MBAs who found ways in their contracts to get that golden
parachute on the way out. I suppose that part alone makes them smarter than
some of the rest of us. But on the other hand, it sure as hell doesn't
demonstrate any sort of sanity or expertise along the way that an Ivy League
education SHOULD have given them.
Like everything in life though, it all depends on what you want to do. CCIE
doesn't replace a degree. (e.g. don't leave school just for this) But on
the other hand, there are exceptions, and once you're in with an
organization, it's often possible to excell based on your accomplishments
along the way. Everyone individually should set their own goals. If your
goal is to stay in school for the rest of your life, feel free to pursue
multiple Masters' degrees and a PhD or two. But at some point in time,
wouldn't it be good to PROVE yourself? (No, the CCIE exam doesn't do that
either, but what one typically does after passing their CCIE exam does)
(Note: Getting completely drunk in celebration is not counted in this
example!)
So I'm sure in your vast academic experienes, you can appreciate the fact
that your comparisons really aren't close to each other to make them
scientifically valid. While there isn't a differential equation to help, I
think logic isn't too far behind.
Everyone makes their own choices, and should live with whatever they choose.
Or, if they don't like it, they have the power to change it. That doesn't
downplay the decisions that anyone else makes though, so don't post to make
yourself feel any better for your accomplishments. No matter how many
certifications or degrees you have, it's still completely possible to be a
blithering idiot. *shrug*
As everything, take my opinions as you may. Academic or not, there one of
the few things that really belong to me. :) Don't trust me too much
though, I don't have a technical degree. I'm just a journalism major from a
top school. (oh yeah, and minor studies in philosophy and political science
which likely accounts for some of the snips along the way). Career shifts
are merely a way of saying "oops".
Are MBAs good? Sure! Do you need one? Depends on what you want to do.
Will I get one? Perhaps 10 years from now, when I see the writing on the
wall for "what's next?" or whenever I happen to get bored doing what I'm
doing. All the certifications and degrees are simply a means to an end.
Cheers,
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, JNCIE
#153, CISSP, et al.
IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.com
http://www.ipexpert.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Cisco Engineer
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:05 AM
To: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: CCIE vs. degree
From time to time I read people trying to compare CCIE with some kind of
degree; I thought that this may be cool to share my own experience. In
general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned throughout the last many years!
But in some points we are different.
Let me share my background first. I got my Bachelor of Applied Science
(Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I work as a Network Engineer
until last August. During the last six years, I was working full time as a
Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx series in RS (second try)
and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of Engineering and MBA (from
top 25 US b-schools) along the way (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time work). Then I
quitted my job last year and return to school full time (yes, some CCIE like
me switched career) to study PhD in operation management (from top-25
b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me 2 years in the industry
to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1 year where I actively study
for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and 3 or 4 hours during
weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be very smart, because I have
seen so many smarter people around me!) Therefore, with my background, I
hope that it makes my point a bit more persuasive.
I know that you may find some of the comparison is like comparing apple to
orange. So please bear with me... (You are free to delete this email if you
dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every comparison can be apple to
orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE Voice.
1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree (assume it is not from some
no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my own experience, CCIE at most
can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes, just a single second year
course, not even a bachelor degree). The content of CCIE is not difficult
at all, assume that you can master differential equation.
2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower than the passing rate of
any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There are two reasons. First,
there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab exam, which drag
down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really takes a longer time to study
for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus. It is because first year
calculus has already prepared me for the second year calculus. Also, it is
difficult to have the time, resource to study. And most of all, this is an
expensive and stressful exam! All things being equal (no stress, cheap
exam), I think that for people who can get an A or B in the second year
calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE lab exam within 3 months after
CCNA level if he can study full time, with all equipment, have all the
material and have a teacher to ask when he/she had problem.
3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only god of passing CCIE exam and
nothing else. For instances, you don't need to know Poisson process or any
queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ if all you
know is just some simple calculation or configuration) to pass the CCIE
written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to know NOTHING about queuing,
other than how to configure it). I never claim myself good at networking at
all. When I need to configure a network, all I can say is that, "let's see
how far I can go". (I don't mean that I am lack of self-confidence in front
of the customer. I just mean that I really know that there is so many things
that I have absolutely no idea about.) Therefore, expect some CCIE coming
to your company to know how to complete all your requirement is ridiculous.
I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in the bottom of my heart, I
know that I have many limits.
4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is god of their own field.
This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not god in your own field.
After you have spent five years in something as narrow as, let say, Virtual
Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only the virtual link), then
you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF. Therefore, a PhD knows
everything about nothing. To continue my analogy, if you ask a PhD about a
stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing protocol, or switching, or
security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast to a CCIE, who knows
little bit about several Cisco things)
5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the same year of experience) is
higher than the average salary of any degree (except MBA). A history full
professor only makes $40k, and a business professor (on the high end) would
make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make more than $100k (even though
I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being admitted is NOT the most
difficult part of graduating from a top school. It is certainly true that
being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being admited to the bachelor
degree of top school is very hard, and being admited to a top school's PhD
program is almost impossible. You think that the average passing rate of
CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the admission rate of top school is
3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the best in their own school?)
But if you think that you will graduate simply because you are admitted,
you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the once-per-year admission
cycle is very hard. However, the project and the homework will kill you!
Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours CCIE lab) is walk in park.
7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let me devote my last point for
those who are currently a professor). Continue from #6. If you think that
graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then how about able to find a
tenure-track job from a top school? And if you think that you are hired by
a top school is tough, how about making the tenure? (my point is, difficult
never ends...)
My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate. Having a degree would only
get you the ticket for admission. So does having a CCIE certificate. The
rest is still up to you. However, it is true that having a CCIE or having a
degree have a strong relationship to being able to success in your career.
therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the HR to filter out lots of
people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill Gates. However, do you
think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may think so, but the HR or the
hiring manager may not share your thought! If they don't hire you, then
start another company, get rich, and buy that company (like how AOL
purchased Times)
This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about academic. In the networking
world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka Cisco way) but in academia,
you have freedom to express your controversial thought!)
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Mon May 01 2006 - 11:41:56 GMT-3